FB: Empire 8

[SJFF82]

was it Boltus?

Sharpe?  I would say Sharpe based upon what my eyes still dont believe they saw that day in 2006 in Pittsford where he singlehandedly....and I mean singlehandedly, even with all his blockers on the deck at times, scored 7 TDs, but then I would defer to the Manzer argument because of the defensive and special teams plays he made...

[SJFF82]

Was Manzer the most feared "play maker" by the opposition in the short history of the E8?

Nope.

End of story.

Don't get me wrong, he was a GREAT player and the most complete football player the E8 has seen.

Who was then?  In your opinion?

IMO, it's either Jason Boltus or Mark Robinson...

see...that is why we have to define 'play-maker'....was Robinson a playmaker just because he was a great running back?  Did he MAKE plays, or was he just an incredibly powerful, yet agile and quick running back that ran behind a great line?  If Robinson is the best playmaker, then why not Ferenbach....I mean he made some plays...remember 'Hail Katherine'...that was a play, he made.

Man, Robinson was an animal and a great running back, but he didnt make plays on defense or specs...

[AlfredSaxon8]

Was Manzer the most feared "play maker" by the opposition in the short history of the E8?

Nope.

End of story.

Don't get me wrong, he was a GREAT player and the most complete football player the E8 has seen.

Who was then?  In your opinion?

IMO, it's either Jason Boltus or Mark Robinson...

That's absolutely ludicrous.   Manzer was without a doubt the most feared player when matched up week to week.  I remember sitting in the locker room and someone at IC had left a gameplan in the locker and on it was the ways to shut down Manzer.  Teams gameplanned around him. 

Yes he was on the field more than most players but he was equally as feared but opposing teams because he was all over the field.  The offense had to prepare for him on Defense, the Defense had to prepare for him on Offense, and the Special Teams had to prepare for him.  He was an most certainly is, the player that could single handily change a game.  Hence, he was a playmaker. 

[SJFF82]

BTW, is anyone else convinced that AlfredSaxon8 is Pep's alter ego on here?  I mean, going into the biggest game of the year, the mild-mannered  Pep is virtually AWOL and in comes this feisty, yet intellectual, poster named 'AlfredSaxon8'...hmmmm....if it wasnt for this new presence, we would have no discussion of the big SJF-AU game coming up...



....I know maxpower....just 82 engages in identity theft/scams on the boards...

[maxpower]

Upstate, you were the one that said "greatest.... the E8 has ever SEEN." Not has ever OWNED or has ever "had play four years." Given, that parameter, I don't know how you can discuss anyone besides Garcon.

And instead of you two just saying things like "I played with him" and "end of story" and "they gameplanned around him" (what player that we've mentioned DIDN'T other teams gameplan around?), how about some actual evidence that is, you know, not based on personal bias?



haha +k 82... but I think I already did for something else.

[theoriginalupstate]

Was Manzer the most feared "play maker" by the opposition in the short history of the E8?

Nope.

End of story.

Don't get me wrong, he was a GREAT player and the most complete football player the E8 has seen.

Who was then?  In your opinion?

IMO, it's either Jason Boltus or Mark Robinson...

see...that is why we have to define 'play-maker'....was Robinson a playmaker just because he was a great running back?  Did he MAKE plays, or was he just an incredibly powerful, yet agile and quick running back that ran behind a great line?  If Robinson is the best playmaker, then why not Ferenbach....I mean he made some plays...remember 'Hail Katherine'...that was a play, he made.

Man, Robinson was an animal and a great running back, but he didnt make plays on defense or specs...

Robby was certainly a play maker, his ability to take swing passes 60 yards and make a guy miss then take it 80 yards for a TD certainly qualifies him as a play maker.  He completely took over the 2004 and 2006 playoffs.  

In 2004 he ran for 240+ yards over the 3rd ranked defense in the NCAA (had 180 at the half) and averaged almost 10 yards a carry and then put up another 220+ yards vs DVC the following week.  Don't forget his 2006 playoffs either, if he wasn't a play maker he wouldn't have put up 100yds on MUC.

He and Boltus had the uncanny ability to completely take over games and dominate no matter what the opposition threw at him.

[SJFF82]

Upstate, you were the one that said "greatest.... the E8 has ever SEEN." Not has ever OWNED or has ever "had play four years." Given, that parameter, I don't know how you can discuss anyone besides Garcon.

And instead of you two just saying things like "I played with him" and "end of story" and "they gameplanned around him" (what player that we've mentioned DIDN'T other teams gameplan around?), how about some actual evidence that is, you know, not based on personal bias?



haha +k 82... but I think I already did for something else.

good points Max...and I think AU8 has presented a better neutral (rather than "I played with him") argument as to why Manzer was a better playmaker, as opposed to just a great player of one's respective position...

now, with that said, Garcon would still have to be in the mix...

[AlfredSaxon8]

Upstate, you were the one that said "greatest.... the E8 has ever SEEN." Not has ever OWNED or has ever "had play four years." Given, that parameter, I don't know how you can discuss anyone besides Garcon.

And instead of you two just saying things like "I played with him" and "end of story" and "they gameplanned around him" (what player that we've mentioned DIDN'T other teams gameplan around?), how about some actual evidence that is, you know, not based on personal bias?



haha +k 82... but I think I already did for something else.

I already said Manzer has literally almost every record on the books at Alfred.  He was named Freshman of the year for the E8 and player of the year for the ECAC's. Lead the E8 in total yards in 07 and 08. He was an all-american.  

And to take a shot at the whole "I played with this guy and such" doesn't make much sense.  I played with a lot of great football players, some of the best ever.  I played with Brady, Keeley, Bork, Manzer, Miller, Rantz, Gatto. I played with and against Phalen.  I played against Robinson, Boltus, Esposito, Farenbach, Juvan, Donovan, Baez.  I've been there and seen them first hand.  I think its a legitimate opinion.

[theoriginalupstate]

Upstate, you were the one that said "greatest.... the E8 has ever SEEN." Not has ever OWNED or has ever "had play four years." Given, that parameter, I don't know how you can discuss anyone besides Garcon.

And instead of you two just saying things like "I played with him" and "end of story" and "they gameplanned around him" (what player that we've mentioned DIDN'T other teams gameplan around?), how about some actual evidence that is, you know, not based on personal bias?



haha +k 82... but I think I already did for something else.

Did Garcon's one season in the E8 and what he did while in the E8 really qualify him as the best play maker the E8 has seen though?

He had a great season but about 1/4 of his yardage and TD's came from the SJF game.

[SJFF82]

Was Manzer the most feared "play maker" by the opposition in the short history of the E8?

Nope.

End of story.

Don't get me wrong, he was a GREAT player and the most complete football player the E8 has seen.

Who was then?  In your opinion?

IMO, it's either Jason Boltus or Mark Robinson...

see...that is why we have to define 'play-maker'....was Robinson a playmaker just because he was a great running back?  Did he MAKE plays, or was he just an incredibly powerful, yet agile and quick running back that ran behind a great line?  If Robinson is the best playmaker, then why not Ferenbach....I mean he made some plays...remember 'Hail Katherine'...that was a play, he made.

Man, Robinson was an animal and a great running back, but he didnt make plays on defense or specs...

Robby was certainly a play maker, his ability to take swing passes 60 yards and make a guy miss then take it 80 yards for a TD certainly qualifies him as a play maker.  He completely took over the 2004 and 2006 playoffs.  

In 2004 he ran for 240+ yards over the 3rd ranked defense in the NCAA (had 180 at the half) and averaged almost 10 yards a carry and then put up another 220+ yards vs DVC the following week.  Don't forget his 2006 playoffs either, if he wasn't a play maker he wouldn't have put up 100yds on MUC.

He and Boltus had the uncanny ability to completely take over games and dominate no matter what the opposition threw at him.

stop...you had me at hello....82 bows to 'Robby' too

yeh...I was at both those games in 2004 and the Alliance game in 2006....he did put the team on his shoulders when it mattered most.

Maybe Frank Rossi can design us an algorithm for us to plug numbers into to resolve this very tenuous debate...

[AlfredSaxon8]

Upstate, you were the one that said "greatest.... the E8 has ever SEEN." Not has ever OWNED or has ever "had play four years." Given, that parameter, I don't know how you can discuss anyone besides Garcon.

And instead of you two just saying things like "I played with him" and "end of story" and "they gameplanned around him" (what player that we've mentioned DIDN'T other teams gameplan around?), how about some actual evidence that is, you know, not based on personal bias?



haha +k 82... but I think I already did for something else.

good points Max...and I think AU8 has presented a better neutral (rather than "I played with him") argument as to why Manzer was a better playmaker, as opposed to just a great player of one's respective position...

now, with that said, Garcon would still have to be in the mix...

I saw the clips of Garcon because he was with Norwich the year before me and we actually played them twice that year and that kid was incredible.  Had he played 4 years in the E8 he would have been the best player in the short history of the conference.  But I just don't understand how Robinson's ability to make plays is any more impressive than Manzer's... Yes, he was always on the field.  But he didn't touch the ball a majority of plays like Robinson or Boltus.  The point was that when he did, he made something happen with it.

[theoriginalupstate]

Why does the fact that Manzer was good on Defense increase his position on a list?

Just because he had to play all over the place doesn't make him the best play maker.

Other players have had bigger impact on games by playing ONE position than Manzer did playing both ways.

It makes Manzer the better football player not the better play maker.

[SJFF82]

82 has an idea...

I think Manzer and Robinson should settle this debate in a steel cage death match at halftime of the game this Saterday....the winner's team gets spotted an additional TD in the second half

[SJFF82]

...and the Pepband will preside over the funeral for the loser by playing taps on their kazoos

[AlfredSaxon8]

Why does the fact that Manzer was good on Defense increase his position on a list?

Just because he had to play all over the place doesn't make him the best play maker.

Other players have had bigger impact on games by playing ONE position than Manzer did playing both ways.

It makes Manzer the better football player not the better play maker.

The point is, that when Manzer did play defense, he had interceptions returned for TD's, he forced fumbles, and he made plays.  It has nothign to do with being a better all around football player.  But it has everything to do with, he was playing defense for 10-12 plays a game and picking off passes, forcing fumbles, and scoring TD's?  He was like a walking statistic no matter what side of the ball he was on.  He barely played maybe 3 drives on defense a game and he had a majority of its statistics.  Thats what constitutes him as a playmaker.