FB: Empire 8

[sjfcards]

AU has been inconsistent but I will say they always come to play against Fisher... So if Fisher loses this weekend and drops another one down the road by chance to AU, they could very easily be on the outside looking in for the non AQ spots (just like 05). Which means every game, like previously said, would be a must win for the Cards if they lose this weekend. If they beat SU, they could still very easily drop one game late in the year, take a dive in the top 25 but still win the AQ for the Empire 8.

BUT as much as Fisher fans might hate to see it happen, conference-wise, Fisher losing to SU might not be a bad thing ONLY if they win out the rest of season. If Fisher loses this weekend but wins out, its likely SU will take the AQ and Fisher will get a non AQ spot putting two teams from the E8 in the playoffs. If Fisher wins, there is a good chance they will be the only team representing the E8 in the playoffs if SU finishes second in the conference.

Granted, its way too early to tell how it will all play out.

Man, I love college football.

I can appreciate what is best for the conference, but wouldn't it be better for the East region as a whole if Fisher were to win out and go undefeated. That would give the east two undefeated teams (assuming Hobart wins all their games). Fisher going undefeated in a respected conference and an undefeated team that made a nice run in the playoffs last year would be a good argument for keeping outside teams out of our bracket.

I doubt it, I think the East is already doomed and will have 'you know who' in the East bracket. It may just be to many teams from both the West and the North for them to allow only Two East teams represent the most eastern bracket. I would think for that to happen, the East Region would have had to have at least 4 teams undefeated from the E8, MAC, NJAC, and LL.

I don't disagree with that, but that seems like an unrealistic bar to set for a region. What other region can claim that a team from the four top conferences are all undefeated? Maybe it is more common than I think, but it seems really difficult to me.

[sjfcards]

AU has been inconsistent but I will say they always come to play against Fisher... So if Fisher loses this weekend and drops another one down the road by chance to AU, they could very easily be on the outside looking in for the non AQ spots (just like 05). Which means every game, like previously said, would be a must win for the Cards if they lose this weekend. If they beat SU, they could still very easily drop one game late in the year, take a dive in the top 25 but still win the AQ for the Empire 8.

BUT as much as Fisher fans might hate to see it happen, conference-wise, Fisher losing to SU might not be a bad thing ONLY if they win out the rest of season. If Fisher loses this weekend but wins out, its likely SU will take the AQ and Fisher will get a non AQ spot putting two teams from the E8 in the playoffs. If Fisher wins, there is a good chance they will be the only team representing the E8 in the playoffs if SU finishes second in the conference.

Granted, its way too early to tell how it will all play out.

Man, I love college football.

I can appreciate what is best for the conference, but wouldn't it be better for the East region as a whole if Fisher were to win out and go undefeated. That would give the east two undefeated teams (assuming Hobart wins all their games). Fisher going undefeated in a respected conference and an undefeated team that made a nice run in the playoffs last year would be a good argument for keeping outside teams out of our bracket.

I doubt it, I think the East is already doomed and will have 'you know who' in the East bracket. It may just be to many teams from both the West and the North for them to allow only Two East teams represent the most eastern bracket. I would think for that to happen, the East Region would have had to have at least 4 teams undefeated from the E8, MAC, NJAC, and LL.

I don't disagree with that, but that seems like an unrealistic bar to set for a region. What other region can claim that a team from the four top conferences are all undefeated? Maybe it is more common than I think, but it seems really difficult to me.

OK, I did some real high level research and saw that last year no region could say that they had  4 conferences with an undefeated team. The west had 2 (MIAC and IIAC), the South had 1 (ASC), and the North had 1 (OAC). Other than travel I don't see why the East needs to have so many undefeated teams to keep MUC out. Looking at it from a high level (this was not the most scientific research - I didn't look for teams that lost to Div II tems, etc.) the East does not look that much different from any of the other regions when it comes to undefeated teams. 

[Bombers798891]

AU has been inconsistent but I will say they always come to play against Fisher... So if Fisher loses this weekend and drops another one down the road by chance to AU, they could very easily be on the outside looking in for the non AQ spots (just like 05). Which means every game, like previously said, would be a must win for the Cards if they lose this weekend. If they beat SU, they could still very easily drop one game late in the year, take a dive in the top 25 but still win the AQ for the Empire 8.

BUT as much as Fisher fans might hate to see it happen, conference-wise, Fisher losing to SU might not be a bad thing ONLY if they win out the rest of season. If Fisher loses this weekend but wins out, its likely SU will take the AQ and Fisher will get a non AQ spot putting two teams from the E8 in the playoffs. If Fisher wins, there is a good chance they will be the only team representing the E8 in the playoffs if SU finishes second in the conference.

Granted, its way too early to tell how it will all play out.

Man, I love college football.

I can appreciate what is best for the conference, but wouldn't it be better for the East region as a whole if Fisher were to win out and go undefeated. That would give the east two undefeated teams (assuming Hobart wins all their games). Fisher going undefeated in a respected conference and an undefeated team that made a nice run in the playoffs last year would be a good argument for keeping outside teams out of our bracket.

I doubt it, I think the East is already doomed and will have 'you know who' in the East bracket. It may just be to many teams from both the West and the North for them to allow only Two East teams represent the most eastern bracket. I would think for that to happen, the East Region would have had to have at least 4 teams undefeated from the E8, MAC, NJAC, and LL.

I don't disagree with that, but that seems like an unrealistic bar to set for a region. What other region can claim that a team from the four top conferences are all undefeated? Maybe it is more common than I think, but it seems really difficult to me.

OK, I did some real high level research and saw that last year no region could say that they had  4 conferences with an undefeated team. The west had 2 (MIAC and IIAC), the South had 1 (ASC), and the North had 1 (OAC). Other than travel I don't see why the East needs to have so many undefeated teams to keep MUC out. Looking at it from a high level (this was not the most scientific research - I didn't look for teams that lost to Div II tems, etc.) the East does not look that much different from any of the other regions when it comes to undefeated teams.

There were undefeated teams in the NWC, (Linfield) NATCH (Concordia-Chicago), and WIAC (Oshkosh) as well

[D3MAFAN]

AU has been inconsistent but I will say they always come to play against Fisher... So if Fisher loses this weekend and drops another one down the road by chance to AU, they could very easily be on the outside looking in for the non AQ spots (just like 05). Which means every game, like previously said, would be a must win for the Cards if they lose this weekend. If they beat SU, they could still very easily drop one game late in the year, take a dive in the top 25 but still win the AQ for the Empire 8.

BUT as much as Fisher fans might hate to see it happen, conference-wise, Fisher losing to SU might not be a bad thing ONLY if they win out the rest of season. If Fisher loses this weekend but wins out, its likely SU will take the AQ and Fisher will get a non AQ spot putting two teams from the E8 in the playoffs. If Fisher wins, there is a good chance they will be the only team representing the E8 in the playoffs if SU finishes second in the conference.

Granted, its way too early to tell how it will all play out.

Man, I love college football.

I can appreciate what is best for the conference, but wouldn't it be better for the East region as a whole if Fisher were to win out and go undefeated. That would give the east two undefeated teams (assuming Hobart wins all their games). Fisher going undefeated in a respected conference and an undefeated team that made a nice run in the playoffs last year would be a good argument for keeping outside teams out of our bracket.

I doubt it, I think the East is already doomed and will have 'you know who' in the East bracket. It may just be to many teams from both the West and the North for them to allow only Two East teams represent the most eastern bracket. I would think for that to happen, the East Region would have had to have at least 4 teams undefeated from the E8, MAC, NJAC, and LL.

I don't disagree with that, but that seems like an unrealistic bar to set for a region. What other region can claim that a team from the four top conferences are all undefeated? Maybe it is more common than I think, but it seems really difficult to me.

OK, I did some real high level research and saw that last year no region could say that they had  4 conferences with an undefeated team. The west had 2 (MIAC and IIAC), the South had 1 (ASC), and the North had 1 (OAC). Other than travel I don't see why the East needs to have so many undefeated teams to keep MUC out. Looking at it from a high level (this was not the most scientific research - I didn't look for teams that lost to Div II tems, etc.) the East does not look that much different from any of the other regions when it comes to undefeated teams.

There were undefeated teams in the NWC, (Linfield) NATCH (Concordia-Chicago), and WIAC (Oshkosh) as well

Here is the 2012 Bracket release: http://www.d3football.com/playoffs/2012/bracket

West had 5, South 1, North 1, and East 2. Yet, 1 of the east represenatives were sent West and the West had I believe two sent North and the North represenative sent East to make two in the east region. I am sure they discussed why the bracket was made that way, the committee believed that the two represenatives (Hobart & Widener) were not among the top 4 teams based on the criteria. So to allow each #1 seed to have a bracket, for travel sake, it was only fair to have the #1 seed within budget contraints to move East.

[ITH radio]

You can hear a detailed explanation from NCAA D3FB Championship Committee Char Brad Bankston, which included the (sort of) admission of how Hobart and Widener were effectively given #2 seeds, in this podcast from last season (about 60 mins or so in):

www.blogtalkradio.com.ith/2012/11/12/in-the-huddlle--libertyleague-football-talk-show

[sjfcards]

AU has been inconsistent but I will say they always come to play against Fisher... So if Fisher loses this weekend and drops another one down the road by chance to AU, they could very easily be on the outside looking in for the non AQ spots (just like 05). Which means every game, like previously said, would be a must win for the Cards if they lose this weekend. If they beat SU, they could still very easily drop one game late in the year, take a dive in the top 25 but still win the AQ for the Empire 8.

BUT as much as Fisher fans might hate to see it happen, conference-wise, Fisher losing to SU might not be a bad thing ONLY if they win out the rest of season. If Fisher loses this weekend but wins out, its likely SU will take the AQ and Fisher will get a non AQ spot putting two teams from the E8 in the playoffs. If Fisher wins, there is a good chance they will be the only team representing the E8 in the playoffs if SU finishes second in the conference.

Granted, its way too early to tell how it will all play out.

Man, I love college football.

I can appreciate what is best for the conference, but wouldn't it be better for the East region as a whole if Fisher were to win out and go undefeated. That would give the east two undefeated teams (assuming Hobart wins all their games). Fisher going undefeated in a respected conference and an undefeated team that made a nice run in the playoffs last year would be a good argument for keeping outside teams out of our bracket.

I doubt it, I think the East is already doomed and will have 'you know who' in the East bracket. It may just be to many teams from both the West and the North for them to allow only Two East teams represent the most eastern bracket. I would think for that to happen, the East Region would have had to have at least 4 teams undefeated from the E8, MAC, NJAC, and LL.

I don't disagree with that, but that seems like an unrealistic bar to set for a region. What other region can claim that a team from the four top conferences are all undefeated? Maybe it is more common than I think, but it seems really difficult to me.

OK, I did some real high level research and saw that last year no region could say that they had  4 conferences with an undefeated team. The west had 2 (MIAC and IIAC), the South had 1 (ASC), and the North had 1 (OAC). Other than travel I don't see why the East needs to have so many undefeated teams to keep MUC out. Looking at it from a high level (this was not the most scientific research - I didn't look for teams that lost to Div II tems, etc.) the East does not look that much different from any of the other regions when it comes to undefeated teams.

There were undefeated teams in the NWC, (Linfield) NATCH (Concordia-Chicago), and WIAC (Oshkosh) as well

Going back and looking it appears I missed those conferences (this was a quick look at it), but the point remains. Why would the East with two undefeated teams (hobart and fisher if it ends up that way) need to have Mount moved into the bracket? I understand the budget stuff, but it would appear from what others have said that they could stay home, and you could move lower seeds from the South and/or North into the East.

In a year where no one or only one team goes undefeated, and there is no real strong case for a #1 seed, I understand. But otherwise...

[jknezek]

Going back and looking it appears I missed those conferences (this was a quick look at it), but the point remains. Why would the East with two undefeated teams (hobart and fisher if it ends up that way) need to have Mount moved into the bracket? I understand the budget stuff, but it would appear from what others have said that they could stay home, and you could move lower seeds from the South and/or North into the East.

In a year where no one or only one team goes undefeated, and there is no real strong case for a #1 seed, I understand. But otherwise...

Because it is not an "East" bracket? It's a bracket built around the 4 best seeds in the country as much as travel and money constraints allow. If you aren't one of the 4 best seeds, you shouldn't be a 1. This conversation exists on a faulty assumption, that regions still get brackets. That isn't happening so much. If Hobart is a top 4 team in the committee's eyes, I expect a bracket built around them. If they aren't, then I expect to see UMU heading up a bracket, along with Linfield and a MIAC/WIAC undefeated champion, plus UMHB (provided they all go undefeated).

It's not an "East" bracket and you're just going to have to start accepting that or you are going to beat your head against this wall every year...

[D3MAFAN]

Going back and looking it appears I missed those conferences (this was a quick look at it), but the point remains. Why would the East with two undefeated teams (hobart and fisher if it ends up that way) need to have Mount moved into the bracket? I understand the budget stuff, but it would appear from what others have said that they could stay home, and you could move lower seeds from the South and/or North into the East.

In a year where no one or only one team goes undefeated, and there is no real strong case for a #1 seed, I understand. But otherwise...

Because it is not an "East" bracket? It's a bracket built around the 4 best seeds in the country as much as travel and money constraints allow. If you aren't one of the 4 best seeds, you shouldn't be a 1. This conversation exists on a faulty assumption, that regions still get brackets. That isn't happening so much. If Hobart is a top 4 team in the committee's eyes, I expect a bracket built around them. If they aren't, then I expect to see UMU heading up a bracket, along with Linfield and a MIAC/WIAC undefeated champion, plus UMHB (provided they all go undefeated).

It's not an "East" bracket and you're just going to have to start accepting that or you are going to beat your head against this wall every year...

You are exactly right. Now to move the conversation along, I wonder if both North Central (Ill.) and Bethel loses over the next few weeks and Hobart and SJF wins out, would Hobart or SJF be likely a #1 Seed, based on D3 Top 25?

[Bombers798891]

Because it is not an "East" bracket? It's a bracket built around the 4 best seeds in the country as much as travel and money constraints allow. If you aren't one of the 4 best seeds, you shouldn't be a 1.

This.

But this conversation started, IIRC, on the idea that a 10-0 Fisher or 9-0 Hobart wouldn't get a one seed, despite Fisher playing in a good conference and having a good OOC, and Hobart winning two playoff games last year, not that the best true "East" team deserves one simply because of geography.

[jknezek]

You are exactly right. Now to move the conversation along, I wonder if both North Central (Ill.) and Bethel somehow loses and Hobart wins out, would they be likely a #1 Seed, based on D3 Top 25?

What would the D3 Top 25 have to do with it? It all depends on the committee. I think a 9-0 Hobart will have a legitimate case if there are 3 or fewer undefeated teams in power conferences. I don't think SJF will pull the same weight, even going through the E8. A lack of success last year would work against them as playoff success if a determinant among undefeated teams. A lot will depend on who else is standing as I think Hobart and SJF will fall behind UMHB, Linfield, MIAC/WIAC undefeateds and UMU. Whether they fall behind Redlands or Johns Hopkins or Huntingdon should those teams win out is a different story. And there are many more to tell before that time of the season has arrived.

[pumkinattack]

The way I see it, MUC and UMHB are locks (MUC bc they do get the benefit of the doubt as there is some allowance for qualitative analysis in the seeding, and its deserved, and UMHB bc they spanked Wesley).  It's possible that a 9-0 Hobart could get it based on last year (part of the qualitative for seeding) despite a relatively weak schedule and only 9 games, but would be tough.  SJF might be as good or better than Hobart and their resume might be a little better come playoff time based on the regular season, but it won't be so overwhelming to overcome last year's results when it comes strictly to seeding (separate from pool C analysis).   

I have no idea how you compare someone from the NWC, WIAC, CCIW, MIAC, etc to an Eastern region team and it's still f'ed up that you have these travel constraints in the playoffs and no meaningful regular season cross regional matchups to compare for seeding purposes, but that's always been the flaw in the system and won't change until they starting dropping more coin on the playoffs (unlikely, yet more likely than seeing more inter-regional play given budgetary constraints more D3 schools face these days). 

I liked how they did it last year in general.  Would prefer to see more like 32 teams seeded and totally bracketed, but that seems like a pipe dream.  Have no real interest in going back to more regional brackets top to bottom.  That's mainly how the East got smoked in the Nat'l semis every year IMO and I have no doubt that part of Hobart's improvement from a one and done or one win playoff team to one that can actually beat teams at least from 6-15, if not higher (I like to hope/think until proven otherwise), is because they went to Alliance in 2008 and to Dover (or wherever Wesley is) in 2011 and learned what it takes at the highest level in D3. 

[ExTartanPlayer]

Because it is not an "East" bracket? It's a bracket built around the 4 best seeds in the country as much as travel and money constraints allow. If you aren't one of the 4 best seeds, you shouldn't be a 1.

This.

But this conversation started, IIRC, on the idea that a 10-0 Fisher or 9-0 Hobart wouldn't get a one seed, despite Fisher playing in a good conference and having a good OOC, and Hobart winning two playoff games last year, not that the best true "East" team deserves one simply because of geography.

It's a fair question.  Assuming both finish undefeated, SJF would probably have a slightly stronger resume based on this season alone, while Bart's success last year technically should matter.  What might help Bart is if a few non-favorites manage to steal AQ's in three-way tie scenarios.  Bart fans oughta be pulling for a three-way CCIW tie with NCC, Illinois Wesleyan, and Wheaton; a mess in the MIAC, i.e. St. Thomas beating Bethel this week and some sort of three-way tie mess involving them & St. John's or Concordia-Moorhead; and a mess in the WIAC as well.

Linfield and Mary-Hardin Baylor are likely to go undefeated and both should receive top seeds if that is the case.  Mount Union may have a slightly tougher obstacle than either of them with Heidelberg and John Carroll, but let's assume they go undefeated as well.  Hobart is unlikely to get a top seed over any of them.  What Bart will need is for the MIAC, CCIW, and WIAC champions all to have a loss (feasible, given the depth of said conferences and the fact that all have at least three genuinely "good" teams who can knock each other off, as has already started in the MIAC).

*Edit: good post, pumkin, popped up while I was typing.  Agreed that fully seeded bracket would be nicer but that's just not happening.

[ITH radio]

Bankston did say that the prior season's results are factored in, so if both. Hobart and SJF finish undefeated, I would gander the Committee would favor the Statesmen as a former Elite 8 team.

Agree on the hope that the Midwest conferences do what the East used to do in the last decade, I.e., beat each other up.  I do think it's pretty likely we'll get Umu, Umhb and Linfield brackets.  The final one is theoretically up for grabs, unless there's an undefeated WIAC/MIAC champ.

What would be interesting is if UWW runs the table and ends up 9-0.  Last season actually dings them, compared to a Hobart, for example that had 12 wins.  Time will tell.

[dlippiel]

We need more cross regional OOC games during the fist three weeks to better help determine bracket seedlings. On top of that it would give everyone a better idea how the regions compare. Everyone knows the top 4 or 5 are a clear step/level ahead of 6-25 and the rest of the nation for that matter. There is still too many unproven conclusions based upon certain data (some more accurate than others) and reputation. Dlip's opinion is that neither Bart or SJF is in that top 4 or 5...yet. The issue with the east, one that most are aware of, is that we don't have that one world beater. Aside from the yesteryear a of the Profs we just haven't had anyone that can really compete with that top 4. What pisses Dlip off is that our entire region is looked at as weaker than the other four because of this. To Dlip that is not true IDHO and Dlip thinks teams like SJF, Bart, and even Salisbury have proven this to an extent.

Either way it pains Dlip to say this but neither Bart or SJF deserves a #1 seed in a bracket that is not regional. Which of course we know the NCAA brackets are not.

[ITH radio]

I would think a 2 seed for a 9-0 Hobart team would be a great get for the Statesmen.  Their receiving and secondary will be an issue if/when they go up against a top 4-5 team (maybe even a Top 10-15) that has a strong rush D.