FB: Liberty League

[unionpalooza]

So I have been lurking in the weeds all year watching the LL drama unfold.
Some entry level dipsh!t observations:

-Qbs win football games.Period. Hobart completely sh!t the bed by starting a rookie, while benching the presumed starter to begin the season. Patch dealt with a lot of crticism the past few years, I am happy he is breaking out this year.
-The Statesmen really took a royal screwing with the schedule this year.  No easy games from the E8 followed by the top 3 in the LL.  Now they play the creampuffs in the last 3.  Hobart AD has to help the boys a little more next year.
-Great to see RPI and Union at the top of LL board
-The LL proves to be one of the most competetive, fun and least predictable leagues in the nation. I will be sitting back and eating popcorn the rest of the way....
-Go Sports....

Wholeheartedly agree on Patch - it's always extra fun to watch when the QB is the toughest dude on the team.  He's clearly the heart of this squad.  Not sure I've seen a dumber move all year than the hit to the head/targeting at Patch on the second drive of the Ithaca game.  When I saw the sideline react when Patch got up and went back in after clearing concussion protocol, I knew Union would find a way to win that game.

PS:  To be clear, not accusing the IC guy of a dirty play.  I'm sure he just let emotions get the best of him and did a dumb thing.

[Bartman]

Congratulations to Jeremy Weiss, Hobart QB, who was the LL Offensive Player of the Week with 300+ yards and 4 TDS against SLU and a Hobart record QB rating for a game of 317. He now leads all LL QB's with a season rating of 171.   

[Bartman]

Bartman picks for the week:

Hobart             21.   This game will be close , as the Yellowjackets and Statesmen are desperate
Rochester       14.  for a league win in the Centennial Cup. Yellowjacket defense keeps it within. 
                             one score.

Buffalo State.   7      The Bombers offense is still lethargic but score enough.
Ithaca.              24

RPI                   37.     The Engineers have no trouble
SLU.                  10

Hilbert.               3.      The Dutchmen pad the season stats
Union               57   

[Machiavelli]

Bartman is hitting it quick this week! I'll join in on the fun, though not much excitement this week:

Mach's Boring Ass Week 9 Predictions:

Hobart - 35
Rochester - 13
Probably the only half decent game this eek. I expect Hobart to keep rolling their schedule the rest of the year.

Buff St - 6
Ithaca - 34
Ithaca isn't necessarily 'playing for pride' quite yet, but I could see a bit of a letdown this week. Thankfully for them, they have Buff St.

RPI - 49
St. Lawrence - 17
Hopefully we don't see St. Lawrence get out to an early lead on another RPI defensive blemish. I'd like to see RPI resting guys again by the 3rd.

Hilbert - 7
Union - 56
I could see Union getting about 35-42 points on big plays in the first half then scaling it back and resting up.

One more week to wait and then it gets real.

[Jonny Utah]

Agreed on RPI, which has found another gear offensively. Union (and certainly not Ithaca) do not have the horses.

Ithaca has an offensive/recruiting problem that needs to be addressed.  I have to say the three worst losses I have seen Ithaca play where they seemed unprepared or simply lost occurred in the past 3 years (Randolph-Macon 2023, Hobart 2024 and JHU 2025.  I can't remember the last time where Ithaca has gone through QBs like this.  Schumm, Parker and now the new kid.  I've never seen an offense so vanilla with little variety or toughness.  All basic spread stuff that teams pick up on.  There are always a few questionable play calls but those seem to come more and more now.

Anyway I hope they make some changes there and we don't see the flatness going forward. 

[IC798891]

I think there re two separate levels to Ithaca: Program issues and team issues.

I don't care much about program issues because those are institutional. Ithaca's in a certain weight class, Hopkins, North Central, and Randolph-Macon were in others. Unless the college decides they invest more in the program, they're simply not going to compete at that level. They had games under Welch where they got dusted too — albeit usually in the playoffs because the schedule rarely featured national contenders, outside of Fisher in 2006.

And honestly...the college has bigger problems to worry about than the football team having a second-round playoff ceiling. If the rest of it turns around, I'll start caring about getting waxed by top 10 teams. And this extends to what we might consider recruiting issues, because to me, the root cause there is more institutional than anything.

The second issue is team issues, and look, I'm not Mina Kimes, so my take on this is limited. Frankly, this feels a lot like the 2011-2016 teams under Welch. Strong defense, but just lacking offensive spark and creativity. There are two main differences between those teams and these last two years for IC.

The first is that Mike Welch did not **** around on special teams. His kickers were up and down, as most D3 kickers are, but he had an elite return game and stole the 2013 E8 title from Fisher with it. Ithaca just does not get big plays against good teams in the return game anymore (Sorry to Anthony D'Addetta's season opening TD return against Bridgewater State) and honestly, bad/muffed returns are hurting them

The second is, and this will sound odd but...Mike Welch's coaching always seemed inversely related to the talent on his rosters. His best coaching performance ever was waxing RPI on the road in 2001 in the playoffs with a backup QB in his first start and a defensive backfield so decimated by injuries he had WRs playing CB. The 2013 and 1994 seasons were masterclasses in getting the most from a limited roster. But he'd be the first to tell you that one of his most talented teams ever was the 2004 squad that missed the playoffs completely. And the 2008 loss to Curry in the playoffs...well, the less we talk bout that the better.

My point is, when Welch's teams had what you'd think of as roster issues, they tended to look sharp, because that's simply when he was at his best as a coach

By extension, Dan Swanstrom had more talent on his rosters to win the LL I felt, but some stunning losses (RPI in 2019, Cortland in 2021) kept them out of the playoffs.

Toerper's teams seem to occupy a middle ground. To be clear, I think he's a very good coach, and I think he's a coach who gets out of his rosters what they have to offer. I don't think it's a coincidence that he maximized Swanstrom's talented roster in 2022. As we've seen more of a talent drain (particularly on offense), the results have waned.

Now, how far you're willing to take that last paragraph probably has to do with how much of the roster/recruiting issues you place at his feet. As I've said, I believe there are institutional challenges that just are hard to overcome. I know that every coach ever will say some version of that, but Ithaca, like so many private colleges in the Northeast, is dealing with a lot of things right now, and everyone is busting their collective *** to turn the ship around — and I believe they are doing it. But it's still having an impact

TL:DR I love Ithaca College, Toerper's an excellent coach, Cortland sucks, go Bombers

[Jonny Utah]

I think there re two separate levels to Ithaca: Program issues and team issues.

I don't care much about program issues because those are institutional. Ithaca's in a certain weight class, Hopkins, North Central, and Randolph-Macon were in others. Unless the college decides they invest more in the program, they're simply not going to compete at that level. They had games under Welch where they got dusted too — albeit usually in the playoffs because the schedule rarely featured national contenders, outside of Fisher in 2006.

And honestly...the college has bigger problems to worry about than the football team having a second-round playoff ceiling. If the rest of it turns around, I'll start caring about getting waxed by top 10 teams. And this extends to what we might consider recruiting issues, because to me, the root cause there is more institutional than anything.

The second issue is team issues, and look, I'm not Mina Kimes, so my take on this is limited. Frankly, this feels a lot like the 2011-2016 teams under Welch. Strong defense, but just lacking offensive spark and creativity. There are two main differences between those teams and these last two years for IC.

The first is that Mike Welch did not **** around on special teams. His kickers were up and down, as most D3 kickers are, but he had an elite return game and stole the 2013 E8 title from Fisher with it. Ithaca just does not get big plays against good teams in the return game anymore (Sorry to Anthony D'Addetta's season opening TD return against Bridgewater State) and honestly, bad/muffed returns are hurting them

The second is, and this will sound odd but...Mike Welch's coaching always seemed inversely related to the talent on his rosters. His best coaching performance ever was waxing RPI on the road in 2001 in the playoffs with a backup QB in his first start and a defensive backfield so decimated by injuries he had WRs playing CB. The 2013 and 1994 seasons were masterclasses in getting the most from a limited roster. But he'd be the first to tell you that one of his most talented teams ever was the 2004 squad that missed the playoffs completely. And the 2008 loss to Curry in the playoffs...well, the less we talk bout that the better.

My point is, when Welch's teams had what you'd think of as roster issues, they tended to look sharp, because that's simply when he was at his best as a coach

By extension, Dan Swanstrom had more talent on his rosters to win the LL I felt, but some stunning losses (RPI in 2019, Cortland in 2021) kept them out of the playoffs.

Toerper's teams seem to occupy a middle ground. To be clear, I think he's a very good coach, and I think he's a coach who gets out of his rosters what they have to offer. I don't think it's a coincidence that he maximized Swanstrom's talented roster in 2022. As we've seen more of a talent drain (particularly on offense), the results have waned.

Now, how far you're willing to take that last paragraph probably has to do with how much of the roster/recruiting issues you place at his feet. As I've said, I believe there are institutional challenges that just are hard to overcome. I know that every coach ever will say some version of that, but Ithaca, like so many private colleges in the Northeast, is dealing with a lot of things right now, and everyone is busting their collective *** to turn the ship around — and I believe they are doing it. But it's still having an impact

TL:DR I love Ithaca College, Toerper's an excellent coach, Cortland sucks, go Bombers

Well said, I guess a few other things on top of that. 

The JHU and Randolph-Macon games seemed like larger ass whoopings than the North Central game or any SJF game (although I admit my memory is foggy on some of those).  But last year's Hobart game in the red zone was something I don't ever remember seeing and this may just be an offensive play calling issue that I hate questioning on here but it has to be said.  But maybe they just don't have the athletes to run a reverse or something new at the 5 yard line when they need to score. 

I think it is also important to add that all of the LL teams, not just Ithaca has hung with top contenders (within reason) the past 10 years with some exceptions.  That was not the case against JHU this year or RM two years ago.

But it may be as simple as Welch and Toerper being defensive coaches that relied on OCs to get that part of the ball moving.

I know about all colleges having budget issues at various levels, but Ithaca isn't much different than a lot of schools in that regard.  They can still recruit New England, NY, PA, NJ but only seem to get the NY/NJ players now with a few exceptions.  I don't know what the deal is with that. 

Then there are the QB issues.  I get teams change QBs at every level but I haven't seen it like this at Ithaca ever.  I guess I always thought they got the "2" star stud and stuck with them when they got the chance.

[unionpalooza]

IC798891, out of curiosity, what's your take on the "institutional" issues, on the recruiting side or otherwise?  Is that mostly about the financial package side?

[IC798891]

Then there are the QB issues.  I get teams change QBs at every level but I haven't seen it like this at Ithaca ever.  I guess I always thought they got the "2" star stud and stuck with them when they got the chance.

To this point: I think you're right, but, I don't know if that's a good thing or not.

I think we're seeing a situation where, the quarterback just is the guy that dictates your success. If you don't think you have the answer there, you're just going to move on. Now, this probably speaks to the impatience of coaches to try and develop guys, but hey, it's their jobs on the line.