FB: Liberty League

[IC798891]

A reasonable person can think Hopkins is the #13 team, or that Dickinson is not a top 25 team, but the only way you can think both at the same time is if you ignore what's happened on the field in favor of pre-history

Correct.

Sometimes, what happens on the field isn't a referendum on who is better overall, but merely better that day.

Did you really think, in 2012, when Buffalo State (of all teams) ended Whitewater's 46-game winning streak, that the Bengals were better? Like, you'd have continued to have them ahead of Whitewater in the rankings, even in early-October, when they were 2-4 and Whitewater was 4-1?

[unionpalooza]

1) It's simply not possible to rank 25 teams so that no one is ahead of a team they lost to and or behind a team they beat.

2) But even if you could, doing that takes it away from being a national rankings and turns it into a national standings.

To illustrate this using your specific example:

Dickinson, has not posted a winning record in the CC since 2006, and has one winning season overall since then. Hopkins ass been to the national semifinals two straight years, won 10+ games in 12 of their last 14 seasons, and beat Dickinson 55-10 last season. If you think they're *better* than Hopkins, well...

Besides, they're fun and they give us something to talk about.

Sure, but it still makes no f*cking sense.  A reasonable person can think Hopkins is the #13 team, or that Dickinson is not a top 25 team, but the only way you can think both at the same time is if you ignore what's happened on the field in favor of pre-history and personal bias. That said I agree it's fun and gives us something to talk about.  I just think one of the most fun things to talk about is how Week 2 polls are goofy exercises in radically uninformed and logically indefensible decision-making.  I'm a weirdo and think it was cool how back in the day you'd make the playoffs and by the second round draw a team you only vaguely knew, and if you made the quarters, you'd play a school you never heard of.  A littler mystery in life is under-rated.

Do you think the Top 25 is just a reflection of what a team has done this season? That still makes it way more like standings rather than rankings. The subjectivity allows us to share what we think will happen the rest of the season. We will see how those three schools end up compared to each other.

I have no idea what it's a reflection of.  It's 25 people ranking teams according to their own idea of what they're supposed to be ranking.

[Jonny Utah]

1) It's simply not possible to rank 25 teams so that no one is ahead of a team they lost to and or behind a team they beat.

2) But even if you could, doing that takes it away from being a national rankings and turns it into a national standings.

To illustrate this using your specific example:

Dickinson, has not posted a winning record in the CC since 2006, and has one winning season overall since then. Hopkins ass been to the national semifinals two straight years, won 10+ games in 12 of their last 14 seasons, and beat Dickinson 55-10 last season. If you think they're *better* than Hopkins, well...

Besides, they're fun and they give us something to talk about.

Sure, but it still makes no f*cking sense.  A reasonable person can think Hopkins is the #13 team, or that Dickinson is not a top 25 team, but the only way you can think both at the same time is if you ignore what's happened on the field in favor of pre-history and personal bias. That said I agree it's fun and gives us something to talk about.  I just think one of the most fun things to talk about is how Week 2 polls are goofy exercises in radically uninformed and logically indefensible decision-making.  I'm a weirdo and think it was cool how back in the day you'd make the playoffs and by the second round draw a team you only vaguely knew, and if you made the quarters, you'd play a school you never heard of.  A littler mystery in life is under-rated.

Do you think the Top 25 is just a reflection of what a team has done this season? That still makes it way more like standings rather than rankings. The subjectivity allows us to share what we think will happen the rest of the season. We will see how those three schools end up compared to each other.

This discussion is exactly why many feel there should be no polls/rankings until after a few weeks of games.  So the poll is what it is at this point.  It isn't going to make sense for the most part the first few weeks.  No one is losing or getting a playoff spot based on week 1 rankings.  Gotta just keep all this in mind when looking at early season polls at any level.

[IC798891]

I have no idea what it's a reflection of.  It's 25 people ranking teams according to their own idea of what they're supposed to be ranking.

IDK man...

You've been a member of these boards for 10 years now. You know how the polls work. You know they're just conversation pieces, and you know these "inconsistencies" with on the field H2H matchups happen. It's a little odd to see a veteran of these boards to bring up the general idea* of teams getting ranked behind ones that they beat.

*I mean, if you believe Dickinson should be ranked ahead of JHU and RMC right now in this poll specifically, I get it. I had a similar complaint about Endicott/HSU in 2023.

But this seems more like you're just wanting to complain about the poll process itself. Which, hey, free country. But it feels a bit like complaining about the autobid process or something.

Frustrating start to the season, and you need to vent a bit?

[unionpalooza]

I have no idea what it's a reflection of.  It's 25 people ranking teams according to their own idea of what they're supposed to be ranking.

IDK man...

You've been a member of these boards for 10 years now. You know how the polls work. You know they're just conversation pieces, and you know these "inconsistencies" with on the field H2H matchups happen. It's a little odd to see a veteran of these boards to bring up the general idea* of teams getting ranked behind ones that they beat.

*I mean, if you believe Dickinson should be ranked ahead of JHU and RMC right now in this poll specifically, I get it. I had a similar complaint about Endicott/HSU in 2023.

But this seems more like you're just wanting to complain about the poll process itself. Which, hey, free country. But it feels a bit like complaining about the autobid process or something.

Frustrating start to the season, and you need to vent a bit?

So a couple of things, then I'll happily take a long LLPP vacation.  First, I didn't bring up the idea of JHU getting ranked ahead of a team they beat, I brought up the idea that voters think they're the #13 in the country while also thinking Dickinson (who just beat the team that just beat Hopkins) is unranked. If I was a voter I'd have all three teams around the low 20s.

Second, as for Whitewater/Buff. St in 2012, that's a perfect example.  No, I wouldn't have ranked Buff. St. ahead of Whitewater in week 6.  But I sure as hell wouldn't have done what the voters did in week 6, which is rank Whitewater at #5 even though they had lost a game to a Buff. St. team that had lost three weeks in a row against pretty average teams.  I would have had them both unranked -- which as it turns out is where both teams ended 2012.

Third, these polls are not just "conversation" pieces.  For better or worse, D3football.com is a massive chunk of the admittedly small national media coverage of D3 football; its poll rankings will appear everywhere a ranked team appears on any D3 team's schedule, game notes, web stories, etc., on the NCAA site, and in almost every local news story that mentions a ranked team. I mean sure, all of this meaningless at the end of the day, and maybe I'm a weirdo for wishing the highest-penetration media coverage of D3 football wasn't a poll that is more lazy opinion than expert analysis. The mistake I am probably making is treating any of this as a media product, rather than clickbait. You have set me straight.



 

[UfanBill]

A tough couple of weeks for Union football had some good news yesterday. Union had not played a JV schedule since 2015. The same year the program hit rock bottom going 0-10 which precipitated a coaching change.    That has changed... The 2026 Union JV team played a home game on Sunday against the Utica JV and reportedly won 34-6. Nice job. They have another game at Hartwick this week...FTC

[Patrick Coleman]

... maybe I'm a weirdo for wishing the highest-penetration media coverage of D3 football wasn't a poll that is more lazy opinion than expert analysis.

Hey man ... just because it isn't the same as your opinion, doesn't mean it's lazy.

Lazy is just showing up and bantering on a message board about a few votes and not doing the work every single week, including looking through a spreadsheet of dozens of data points for about 60 teams in the preseason.

[The Third Division]

1) It's simply not possible to rank 25 teams so that no one is ahead of a team they lost to and or behind a team they beat.

2) But even if you could, doing that takes it away from being a national rankings and turns it into a national standings.

To illustrate this using your specific example:

Dickinson, has not posted a winning record in the CC since 2006, and has one winning season overall since then. Hopkins ass been to the national semifinals two straight years, won 10+ games in 12 of their last 14 seasons, and beat Dickinson 55-10 last season. If you think they're *better* than Hopkins, well...

Besides, they're fun and they give us something to talk about.

Sure, but it still makes no f*cking sense.  A reasonable person can think Hopkins is the #13 team, or that Dickinson is not a top 25 team, but the only way you can think both at the same time is if you ignore what's happened on the field in favor of pre-history and personal bias. That said I agree it's fun and gives us something to talk about.  I just think one of the most fun things to talk about is how Week 2 polls are goofy exercises in radically uninformed and logically indefensible decision-making.  I'm a weirdo and think it was cool how back in the day you'd make the playoffs and by the second round draw a team you only vaguely knew, and if you made the quarters, you'd play a school you never heard of.  A littler mystery in life is under-rated.

Do you think the Top 25 is just a reflection of what a team has done this season? That still makes it way more like standings rather than rankings. The subjectivity allows us to share what we think will happen the rest of the season. We will see how those three schools end up compared to each other.

If that's what the D3 football top 25 is then what's the Frank Rossinator Top 40?

[Bartman]

Wow, some heavy intensity over early season polling. We all know it is too early to give a high degree of accuracy to these early season polls. Teams are still developing and it is very difficult to rank with precision at this point in the season, as they are a mix of preseason opinions and data from 120 minutes of football. I appreciate the D3Football poll voters giving us something to discuss, but I usually wait til midseason to focus on the polls, unless Hobart beats Utica this weekend going 3-0, then I'll really be pissed it the Statesmen are not ranked .

[Bartman]

Congrats to Zeshan Dixon for his team of the week award:

CB Zeshan Dixon, Sr., Hobart

Dixon made a team and career-high 13 tackles, intercepted a career-high three passes and broke up a fourth pass in a 27-14 win against Brockport. His first pick of the game, a leaping, one-handed snag, landed at No. 10 on SportsCenter's Top Plays. On his last interception, Dixon pulled the ball out of midair after Xavier Aviles broke up the pass, and returned it 72 yards for a game-clinching touchdown with 1:45 remaining. It was the first time a Statesman had three interceptions in a game since Nov. 22, 2008.

N.B. Lazarous Morgan joined the Hobart Coaching staff as Co-Defensive Coordinator/Defensive Backs after four years as the Buffalo State HC, where they led the LL in fewest passing yards allowed . Hobart had 5 interceptions and played aggressively all game against Brockport.
This week will be a great test as Utica's QB Tyler Szalkowski threw for 400 yards against RPI last week.
So the LL/E8 had consecutive weeks of ESPN's Top ten Play highlights.... last week from Brockport's Slywka leaping catch and this week's Dixon's similar leaping one handed interception. Two great D3 Football athletes that are fun to watch.

[IC798891]

Morgan on the DC staff was such a smart pickup by Hobart

[Bartman]

Morgan on the DC staff was such a smart pickup by Hobart

We had a hole to fill after Mike Green left as DC and took the HC job at Gettysburg. I like the coaching staff additions and the team seems to be in line with the new coaches. I watched it against Cortland in the scrimmage where we have struggled in the past . This year the first half was scoreless as mostly first teams battled. Cortland pulled away in the second half as their depth was evident.

[IC798891]

maybe I'm a weirdo for wishing the highest-penetration media coverage of D3 football wasn't a poll that is more lazy opinion than expert analysis.

Hey, I just want to say this.

I have certainly not always been my best self on these boards. I'm grateful for the patience Pat and others have shown me in those moments that have allowed me to continue to be a part of them.

As I said, I've certainly disagreed with poll specifics over the years. But this sort of broad, negative comment seems really rude and dismissive of the amount of work pollsters put in. And honestly, out of character for you.

I hope, if you're just going through a stretch, that you come back to the boards. Your contributions are always great -- even when we disagree -- and I'm glad for the (virtual) relationships we've developed here.

Whether it's Union football specific or something else, hang in there, brother, and we'll see you on the other side of your vacation