FB: Liberty League

[tony/troy]

Anyone got anything?...On June 10, 2024 the Liberty League and the Empire 8 announced an agreement which essentially traded Hilbert College from the E8 to the LL to balance numbers. This was done to facilitate a scheduling agreement which shook out as each team in each league scheduling two other teams in the other league. This was initially a two year deal. The match-ups that ensued were well thought out and made sense. For example Ithaca and Cortland kept their Cortaca Jug rivalry game. Rochester vs. neighbor St. John Fisher, Hilbert vs Alfred St and Hartwick in games they might have a chance to compete in...RPI vs Utica, Union vs Cortland, St Lawrence vs long time foe Alfred etc...That two year period is over. Does anyone have any insight on whether the agreement has been extended? Will match-ups change as I suspect or will they remain the same? Inquiring minds want to know. 

I did hear something last spring while attending a Liberty League baseball game that appeared to at least indicate that the agreement will go on into 2027-2028 and that all the institutions involved already new the new pairings for 2027-2028.

However, do not remember anyone saying for sure that the agreement itself was already extended or if the new pairings were created in case the agreement is actually extended at some point in the future.

There were also a new pairings or two mentioned but I just don't remember them (nor cared during baseball season).

Best place to satisfy any curiosity is to contact your institution's SID. By now (over 5 months later) they must know if the agreement was extended, not extended and are instead busting their butts trying to find at least two more non conference games.
 

 

[IC798891]

My only real issue with the whole thing is Hilbert. They simply aren't an LL-caliber team.

Hilbert really should not be playing varsity right now.

As for the LL thing, I'm old enough to remember when they didn't think *Ithaca* was a fit and turning them down for membership at least once. Heck, "institutional fit" was Union's excuse to duck, ahem, decline to play Ithaca in the regular season all the way back to the 1980s. And it's not like Buffalo State bears any resemblance to anyone in the conference anyway.

I'd personally rather see Ithaca play someone in Pennsylvania -- like, W&J -- annually.

[tony/troy]

My only real issue with the whole thing is Hilbert. They simply aren't an LL-caliber team.

Hilbert really should not be playing varsity right now.

As for the LL thing, I'm old enough to remember when they didn't think *Ithaca* was a fit and turning them down for membership at least once. Heck, "institutional fit" was Union's excuse to duck, ahem, decline to play Ithaca in the regular season all the way back to the 1980s. And it's not like Buffalo State bears any resemblance to anyone in the conference anyway.

I'd personally rather see Ithaca play someone in Pennsylvania -- like, W&J -- annually.

And I am even older.

The earlier Ithaca attempt (the unsuccessful one) had a lot more than Union dead set against it. Picking on them alone is not entirely fair.

The later attempt (the successful one) also had a number of detractors mostly among "more non football playing progressive liberal arts institutions". There was even consideration of at least some of them in eastern New York leaving the Liberty League (believe it was for NEWMAC) should Ithaca be admitted. Eventually and supposedly most were convinced that the Liberty League needed a new full member with a football program or they risked losing their auto bid in football and Ithaca, like it or not, was that new member. So, shut up and vote yes!!! Also probably did not hurt that the detractors eventually realized on their own that having all their programs traveling to and from the entire eastern seaboard amounted to fiscal insanity!!!

As for Union and the "institutional fit" bit. Union joined the NESCAC in 1971 and "withdrew" from it in 1977. At the time it was generally accepted dogma that Union was allowed to gracefully exit before they were booted out for taking athletics way too seriously by NESCAC standards and it was the very same Union who was then considered the "unsuitable fit". Talk about what goes around comes around or is it the other way around.

When all the above was said and done and regardless of who liked or disliked who the bottom line is this. Admitting Ithaca to the Liberty League as a full member for ALL SPORTS enhanced the athletic credibility of the conference and, conversely, losing Ithaca as a full member for ALL SPORTS diminished the athletic credibility of the Empire 8.   

[stlawus]

I just want to complete a 1st down

I certainly hope the Saints can improve for your sake, the sake of the conference, and the sake of the hard working student athletes that are there. I always want to see SLU succeed. Not just on the football field but on the ice (where they have been ****ing embarrassingly abysmal), the lacrosse field, and everywhere else.

I'm hoping for a competitive injury free game against my beloved Garnet tomorrow. I'd love to see some highs for the SLU players and staff tomorrow, even at the expense of my Union. Of course, I really want Union to get the W when it's all said and done.

Any idea what some of the reasons are that are causing the SLU Gridiron Saints and Ice Hockey Saints to struggle so much?

As for hockey, the program took a major reputational hit with the mess that happened with the previous coach, Mark Morris.  Very well publicized issue over player treatment that resulted in an independent investigation. Set the program back several years.  New coach came in with a bare cupboard, and to his credit won an ECAC championship in the covid shortened season and got to the ECAC championship game a few years ago, but that was off the back of a pre-NIL recruiting class.  NIL has taken a very heavy toll on recruiting. SLU has had some very highly touted recruits committed to play the past 4 years but lost them over the summer.  This July they had a draft pick from the Penguins poached by SLU's former coach at UMASS. SLU has spent a ton on upgrading facilities to mitigate some of these issues, so we'll see how the next season goes.

As for football, it's simply a recruiting issue. SLU is not able to hold onto coordinators for more than 3 or 4 years which isn't atypical for d3, but the ever changing systems has not helped the recruiting trail. For example, the previous offensive coordinator who had done pretty good things ended up taking a local HS head coaching job this season for a team that just set the New York state record for consecutive losses. The program has a lot of funding, but they just don't recruit the kind of players like Raymond used to.  They used to be able to get a lot of defensive talent from Rochester, but now that pipeline has resulted in 1 or 2 players a year. Coach has prioritized players from New England that can pay full tuition (SLU's backup QB is the son of the Giants orthopedic surgeon) over d3 blue chip talent in the trenches. It's not like SLU is a historically strong program, some good seasons in the early 80s and success under Raymond, but other than that just never much there. Puckhaber is a fine representative of SLU and someone that has a lot of trust from the administration, so I hope something changes on the field where results start to come.

[stlawus]

My only real issue with the whole thing is Hilbert. They simply aren't an LL-caliber team.

Hilbert really should not be playing varsity right now.

As for the LL thing, I'm old enough to remember when they didn't think *Ithaca* was a fit and turning them down for membership at least once. Heck, "institutional fit" was Union's excuse to duck, ahem, decline to play Ithaca in the regular season all the way back to the 1980s. And it's not like Buffalo State bears any resemblance to anyone in the conference anyway.

I'd personally rather see Ithaca play someone in Pennsylvania -- like, W&J -- annually.

And I am even older.

The earlier Ithaca attempt (the unsuccessful one) had a lot more than Union dead set against it. Picking on them alone is not entirely fair.

The later attempt (the successful one) also had a number of detractors mostly among "more non football playing progressive liberal arts institutions". There was even consideration of at least some of them in eastern New York leaving the Liberty League (believe it was for NEWMAC) should Ithaca be admitted. Eventually and supposedly most were convinced that the Liberty League needed a new full member with a football program or they risked losing their auto bid in football and Ithaca, like it or not, was that new member. So, shut up and vote yes!!! Also probably did not hurt that the detractors eventually realized on their own that having all their programs traveling to and from the entire eastern seaboard amounted to fiscal insanity!!!

As for Union and the "institutional fit" bit. Union joined the NESCAC in 1971 and "withdrew" from it in 1977. At the time it was generally accepted dogma that Union was allowed to gracefully exit before they were booted out for taking athletics way too seriously by NESCAC standards and it was the very same Union who was then considered the "unsuitable fit". Talk about what goes around comes around or is it the other way around.

When all the above was said and done and regardless of who liked or disliked who the bottom line is this. Admitting Ithaca to the Liberty League as a full member for ALL SPORTS enhanced the athletic credibility of the conference and, conversely, losing Ithaca as a full member for ALL SPORTS diminished the athletic credibility of the Empire 8.   

Ithaca's admission to the LL was a very good decision.  They played everyone in the LL in every sport anyways and made the league better.  It's really Bard that is an athletic ball and chain on everyone.  Just completely non-competitive in essentially every sport. They've had a decent year every now and then in some sports, but otherwise just kills everyone's SOS.  They make a good travel partner with Vassar which is why they stay, but if it were up to me I'd give them the boot and try to get a NEWMAC or E8 school like Fisher to replace them.

[Bartman]

Nice contributions by Tony troy and stlawus. One idea I like that stlawus put forth is saying good bye to Bard and replacing them with St. John Fisher as a full member. It helps the LL football issue(no disrespect to Hilbert but they need to find another home or Buff State can swap with Fisher and return to the E8) and Fisher is competitive in all sports. As far as Ithaca, they've totally lifted the LL profile in sports , I just hate that we can't beat them in football at Butterfield, so it sucks to be reminded of that every other year.

[Ice Bear]

I LOVE having Ithaca in the LL! Love it!

[Machiavelli]

After successfully picking against RPI last week in my reverse psychology approach, I'm at a not-impressive 21-6 record on the season. But hey, maybe things are looking up. So here goes:

Mach's Week-5 Resurgence Picks:

Union - 42
St. Lawrence - 10
Union has their reserves in before the end of the 3rd.

Dilbert - 0
RPI - 77
RPIs D gave up a garbage time TD to Hobart. I'd be shocked if Dilbert scores.

Buffalo St. - 10
Rochester - 35
I'm still not sure what to make of Rochester. They seem like a quasi-capable middle of the road team that could upset 1 of the LL Top 4. Maybe not, but they should smoke Buff.

Ithaca - 31
Hobart - 17
This is obviously the game of the week. It feels like it could be a bit of a matchup concern for Ithaca. But after what RPI did, I think Ithaca does their thing eventually. Wouldn't be mad if I pick wrong on this one.

I think the goal for Union and RPI is to get out of these games healthy. But can we all get on board with someone trying to put up 100 on Dilbert? I don't know that Coach I has the heart for it, but I'd get behind it. Enjoy your weekends in the 'cooked' conference.

[tony/troy]

Nice contributions by Tony troy and stlawus. One idea I like that stlawus put forth is saying good bye to Bard and replacing them with St. John Fisher as a full member. It helps the LL football issue(no disrespect to Hilbert but they need to find another home or Buff State can swap with Fisher and return to the E8) and Fisher is competitive in all sports. As far as Ithaca, they've totally lifted the LL profile in sports , I just hate that we can't beat them in football at Butterfield, so it sucks to be reminded of that every other year.

St. John Fisher is not a bad idea at all. However, just wonder if enough uppity institutions (one of which i follow) or very progressive liberal arts institutions would ever vote yes in sufficient numbers to having a religious institution in their conference as a full member.

Remember that St. Lawrence is not named after a saint. It is named after a river.

[Bartman]

Nice contributions by Tony troy and stlawus. One idea I like that stlawus put forth is saying good bye to Bard and replacing them with St. John Fisher as a full member. It helps the LL football issue(no disrespect to Hilbert but they need to find another home or Buff State can swap with Fisher and return to the E8) and Fisher is competitive in all sports. As far as Ithaca, they've totally lifted the LL profile in sports , I just hate that we can't beat them in football at Butterfield, so it sucks to be reminded of that every other year.

St. John Fisher is not a bad idea at all. However, just wonder if enough uppity institutions (one of which i follow) or very progressive liberal arts institutions would ever vote yes in sufficient numbers to having a religious institution in their conference as a full member.

Remember that St. Lawrence is not named after a saint. It is named after a river.

Good point. Hobart produced more Episcopal Church Bishops(30) than any other college since Bishop John Henry Hobart founded Geneva College in 1822. Hobart is now "loosely affiliated"and the current President is a good "Boston Catholic", so Fisher has Hobart's vote. 

[IC798891]

The earlier Ithaca attempt (the unsuccessful one) had a lot more than Union dead set against it. Picking on them alone is not entirely fair.

I'm aware.

If you re-read my post, I did not place the blame for Ithaca's prior failed LL attempt at Union.

I mocked Union for being too scared to play Ithaca in the 1980s and hiding behind "institutional fit" to justify it. Because if you're an Ithaca fan from the Butterfield era, you pretty much heard about it nonstop when the Bombers were going around playing multiple D2 school and struggling to find 10 quality opponents every year instead of playing the state's other really good D3 football team each year.

Buttefield himself famously quipped that the Bombers would play Union in a parking lot if the Dutchmen were willing.

But to the larger point, this is why I hate when people complain about things like fit. Who are we (myself included) to turn our noses up at, like Buff State when 15 years ago it was being done to Ithaca, and now no one cares?

[Caz Bombers]

the way I heard it was the LL recruited Bard as opposed to Bard actively seeking admission. When RIT and Ithaca applied together the LL was delighted to have RIT and didn't want IC at the time. The ADs were very much opposed to Bard and correctly so.

The league members won't kick anyone out but people who know things have told me Bard coaches and AD are extremely tired of having their heads bashed in all the time; they basically have a PIF for themselves but  if it doesn't work out in a few years they will look for alternate conference arrangements.

[tony/troy]

the way I heard it was the LL recruited Bard as opposed to Bard actively seeking admission. When RIT and Ithaca applied together the LL was delighted to have RIT and didn't want IC at the time. The ADs were very much opposed to Bard and correctly so.

The league members won't kick anyone out but people who know things have told me Bard coaches and AD are extremely tired of having their heads bashed in all the time; they basically have a PIF for themselves but  if it doesn't work out in a few years they will look for alternate conference arrangements.

Bard's best option for both a suitable level of competition and multiple fairly close in distance opponents is the Skyline Conference.

On a personal note, I will miss a fairly short drive from my home to spring baseball games at Bard and the high success rate my team generally has whenever they go there. However, Bard's expiration date for competing in most sports at the Liberty League level is fast approaching and it is getting to be time to say goodbye.

[Bartman]

the way I heard it was the LL recruited Bard as opposed to Bard actively seeking admission. When RIT and Ithaca applied together the LL was delighted to have RIT and didn't want IC at the time. The ADs were very much opposed to Bard and correctly so.

The league members won't kick anyone out but people who know things have told me Bard coaches and AD are extremely tired of having their heads bashed in all the time; they basically have a PIF for themselves but  if it doesn't work out in a few years they will look for alternate conference arrangements.

RIT  bringing  back football works for me, I'll start the rumor!

[stlawus]

Bard used to be in the Skyline. I don't know why they ever left. That conference is perfectly suited for them competitively and travel wise. They were very clearly recruited to the LL as a travel partner for Vassar as the travel pairing used to be Vassar-RPI. But that kind of got negated with the addition of Ithaca since one of the three capital area teams had to be paired with one of the western NY teams or Ithaca which is quite a haul.