NCAA Tournament

[cciwrabblerouser]

i am watching the videocast tonight between hope and uw-whitewater.  uww is the host site.

i always thought that the ncaa rules were very clear about not permitting advertising (except for its corporate partners), but at uww they don't seem to care about the rules.  even though coca-cola is a huge partner of the ncaa, the scorer's table at uww as a very large pepsi sign in front of it.  i noticed this last week as well when uww was hosting and found it strange.

why would the ncaa rep permit this?  most reps are very careful, but whoever is up there apparently doesn't have a backbone.  most schools that have this kind of gym advertising will put some sort of dark sheet or other covering to comply with ncaa rules.  what gives whitewater special privileges?

can anyone help with a reasonable answer? or doesn't whitewater and the ncaa really care?

That is different from my experience when George Fox has hosted regionals in the tournament. What you describe surprises me because I'm used to what you said about covering signage and being very careful to follow all the requirements.

exactly, BruinFan.  typically d-III hosts do everything they can to follow the clearly-stated ncaa rules because they value the opportunity to host and get home-court advantage.  so what's with whitewater?  unless someone can argue for their decision to keep the pepsi sign so exposed, i believe that the school is thumbing its collective nose at the ncaa.  they should not host in the future until that attitude changes.

[Pat Coleman]

These things completely depend on the rep. Now, I've never seen a school have to cover up an advertising sign in a preliminary round, but maybe that is the case, I don't know. But it's the NCAA's rep on site that has to call that out and make it happen. I wouldn't expect everyone to know all the rules (especially since they make the hosting handbook so hard to find these days).

[cciwrabblerouser]

These things completely depend on the rep. Now, I've never seen a school have to cover up an advertising sign in a preliminary round, but maybe that is the case, I don't know. But it's the NCAA's rep on site that has to call that out and make it happen. I wouldn't expect everyone to know all the rules (especially since they make the hosting handbook so hard to find these days).

pat, that is exactly what i said in the post i put up last night at 8:37 p.m.  the rep needs to make sure the host is following the rules -- and, believe me, i KNOW that the advertising rules are for ALL rounds.  it is very clear in the handbook, and it is covered in the early-in-the-week conference call.  ignorance is not an excuse -- and ESPECIALLY when the central region chair is the head coach at whitewater and knows better.  my only conclusion is that whoever was designated as the 'ncaa site rep' must not have backbone enough to tell the regional chair that her institution needs to do something -- they had plenty of time since the rep shows up on campus on thursday for the teams' practices.

like i said, ignorance is not an excuse.

[Pat Coleman]

I hadn't read your rant in every board you posted it on before responding here.

[cciwrabblerouser]

I hadn't read your rant in every board you posted it on before responding here.

pat, point of clarification ... the post i was referring was indeed on THIS board -- scroll back one page to reply #837.   

please know that i appreciate your administration of this board and what it means to d-III basketball.  it is an excellent source of information and a wonderful way to not only praise d-III student-athletes but also allows us to raise legitimate questions and concerns.  thanks for maintaining the board.  so, i am sorry if it has come off as a 'rant.' that isn't my intention -- though i will respond when some team supporter gets really subjective because of their passion and belief that 'my school can't do wrong.'  that's the feeling i've gotten from some of the uww peeps.

[Mr. Ypsi]

I hadn't read your rant in every board you posted it on before responding here.

pat, point of clarification ... the post i was referring was indeed on THIS board -- scroll back one page to reply #837.   

please know that i appreciate your administration of this board and what it means to d-III basketball.  it is an excellent source of information and a wonderful way to not only praise d-III student-athletes but also allows us to raise legitimate questions and concerns.  thanks for maintaining the board.  so, i am sorry if it has come off as a 'rant.' that isn't my intention -- though i will respond when some team supporter gets really subjective because of their passion and belief that 'my school can't do wrong.'  that's the feeling i've gotten from some of the uww peeps.

And the 'feeling' I've gotten is that you must be a lobbyist for Coca Cola.   Why else would you belabor so much a rule that no one else had apparently even noticed the violation of?

BTW, I assume your keyboard has a shift key - try using capitalization!

[frank uible]

In the 40s Joe Louis endorsed a soft drink called "Joe Louis Punch". When in that period asked  to identify his favorite beverage, the Brown Bomber replied "Coca-Cola".

[mark_reichert]

Since the 1999-2000 season, Washington University, Depauw and Illinois Wesleyan have held a November Tip-Off Tournament of which each is a rotating host, usually with a fourth invited team to play the host the first day, the winners and losers of day one playing each other on day two.  The exception was 2010 when there wasn't a willing vic...opponent and they played a three way round robin tournament over three days.   The last tournament had DePauw's closest victory this season by one point over WashU.

The last two listed above are the last two champions and the other played in the previous three championship games winning the middle one.  Since Depauw's previous championship was over WashU in 2007, the teams also have won four and participated in six of the last seven.

Has there been a D3hoops write up of the Tournament previously?

[Pat Coleman]

We definitely tend to focus on it in our wrapups of the first weekend because it's such a great group of teams but we haven't been in a position to send anyone.

[mark_reichert]

We definitely tend to focus on it in our wrapups of the first weekend because it's such a great group of teams but we haven't been in a position to send anyone.

Thank you.  I hadn't actually been thinking in terms of sending anybody.  I'll look in the archives for previous mentions.

BTW, I hadn't realized until looking at their history just now that it was the DePauw men who lost in Rochester's championship, and by a single point at that.  One more basket and DePauw would have had dual men and women's championships before WashU and Illinois Wesleyan, rather than still be waiting.

[gordonmann]

The tournament led our coverage on Saturday, November 24th.

"November is playoff time for Division III football, but the Illinois Wesleyan women and Christopher Newport men hosted tournaments worthy of the postseason."

http://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2012/11/wrapup-nov24

[mark_reichert]

The tournament led our coverage on Saturday, November 24th.

"November is playoff time for Division III football, but the Illinois Wesleyan women and Christopher Newport men hosted tournaments worthy of the postseason."

http://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2012/11/wrapup-nov24

Thanks.  I like the "worthy of the postseason" because except for the early season rust, it certainly was.  The Bears actually regressed after that tournament in terms of shooting the ball.  IMHO, all they have to do to return to the Final Four is find that shooting touch again.

I think I actually saw that wrapup coverage when it came out originally.  What I had in mind was a smaller piece ahead of time reminding anybody who could make it about the tournament.  I'd think it would be particularly warranted this November, though I'm not sure how many can make it to Greencastle, but there will probably be live streaming.

I actually learned more about the history of the tournament from this article, like when it started, which was right before I started following the Bears in earnest.

http://www.thedepauw.com/sports/tigers-and-bears-to-meet-for-the-25th-time-friday-night-1.3007069#.UUjufpFgYdd

Oh, and while DePauw deserves most every accolade for their performance this year and  they have the most successful record, I hope nobody suggests they're the best team in NCAA Division III Women's basketball history.  I've already been a pain stating my case for which team most qualifies for that.   Heck, I think I'd put Capital ahead of this DePauw team.  The 1994 team acted like Sherman's Army in the Tournament and the 1995 team posted the 33-0 record DePauw just broke.  The championship game was surprisingly close, but it was over an Oshkosh team that would go 30-0 in 1996.  I'll change my mind depending on how DePauw does next year.

[ronk]

 I've listened to a couple of player interviews during the tourney(Vanessa Hejnas(Widener) on Hoopsvillle and Danny Rainer(Williams) @ the Final 4 and it was refreshing to hear them speak with enthusiasm, coherence, and understanding. They're fine representatives of the student-athletes that we think permeate the D3 environment.

[gordonmann]

Oh, and while DePauw deserves most every accolade for their performance this year and  they have the most successful record, I hope nobody suggests they're the best team in NCAA Division III Women's basketball history.

I started covering Division III women's basketball in 2001. That year's Washington U. team was the best I've seen and I've heard the earlier teams in that run were better.

[mark_reichert]

Oh, and while DePauw deserves most every accolade for their performance this year and  they have the most successful record, I hope nobody suggests they're the best team in NCAA Division III Women's basketball history.

I started covering Division III women's basketball in 2001. That year's Washington U. team was the best I've seen and I've heard the earlier teams in that run were better.

Well now that YOU bring it up.....

DePauw's 69-51 victory falls one short of the then record margin in the 82-63 capper to Capital's 1994 juggernaut voyage to the championship I mentioned.  Who was that victory over?  The Washington University Bears in their very first trip to the championship game.  What team obliterated that record with margin that may never be broken?  The 1999-2000 Bears in their 79-33 victory over Southern Maine which came after the flattening of Scranton 64-30.  I've always considered the real Final Four to be the sectional victories at the Field House over Baldwin-Wallace(86-71) and Eau-Claire(81-63) who were #2 and #3 in the D3hoops poll (but I forget which was which) but even those games weren't as close as they appear.  To my shame those games and the one over Oshkosh are the only games I ever saw Alia Fischer play, since it was write ups of their campaign for a threepeat that drew me to the games finally.

Prior to the tournament Mark Simon had this to say here:

http://www.d3hoops.com/archives/women/2000/who-can-beat-wash-u

And that 46 point margin came about largely due to the bench because the two best players in WashU women's basketball history[1] got two fouls in the first six minutes and spent at least half  of the first half sitting down.  That's how deep the team was.

You can read my posts, that got me in trouble and my Karma down, in the MIAA section starting March 12, 2006.  That one and one on March 18 were positive if self serving.  Later ones weren't, to which one of them you responded politely.    I didn't end up reacting well to ill-informed statements like this:

I definitely think you'd be hard pressed to find a more difficult road any men's or women's D3 team has taken to a national title.

To which I say this:
http://www.d3hoops.com/archives/women/1998-wbb-title-game-story

Or Hope Fan's trumpeting of Fifield's overly polite comment in the 2006 championship game writeup:

"We got beat by as good a team in Division III as I've seen," said Southern Maine head coach Gary Fifield. "They're athletic, they have great size and great depth. I think they would beat a lot of Division I teams. That's as good a team as I've seen and I've been around for a few years."

The 2000 game was so traumatic he'd wiped it from his memory?

Hope had only beaten the 2006 Bears by three points, and as much as I love Manning and Beehler[2], they weren't Fischer and Rodgers, and the rest of the team wasn't as deep either.

But I won't bring it up again at least not for a good long while.

[1] At WashU that's without argument.  As for Division III history:

http://www.d3hoops.com/awards/all-decade/women/index

The NCAA 25th Anniversary Team for which I have no good link.

[2] Fahey declared Manning her best small forward even though she was listed as a (tall) guard.  She's only WashU player I ever saw who blocked lots of shots, stole them, hit three's, jump shots and layups and play great defense, even if all those 3 point attempts kept her over all shot percentage down.  I pine for Beehler's near automatic layups everytime I see the current players miss an easy one.