Can someone explain the playoffs for me?

Ron Boerger · September 10, 2012, 05:26:37 PM

Quote from: smedindy on September 10, 2012, 03:30:05 PM
You mean UAA, not President's.

Ooops, quite right. Hey, Washington was a president, yeah, that's why I got confused

Gray Fox · September 10, 2012, 05:49:37 PM

To get an automatic bid, a conference has to have seven or more members.

frank uible · September 10, 2012, 06:56:19 PM

The UAA and the Presidents' Athletic Conference are not hard to confuse with one another. The original membership of the PAC was comprised of Western Reserve, Case Tech, John Carroll and the University of Detroit, none of which are current members. Of course Western Reserve and Case Tech have since merged into Case Western Reserve which is now a member of the UAA but not of the PAC.

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh · September 14, 2012, 01:52:49 PM

Just to clear up some potential confusion... Pool B's, as described, are their own group and are selected for an "at-large" bid before Pool C since they do not have access to an automatic qualifying bid due to the already described scenarios. Then all of the teams left in Pool B that did not get the bid are put into Pool C with all the teams from AQ conferences and the final 7 slots are selected. This is how a "Pool B" team may get another bid as described by Ron Boerger.

ADL70 · September 15, 2012, 10:42:10 AM

Quote from: frank uible on September 10, 2012, 06:56:19 PM
The UAA and the Presidents' Athletic Conference are not hard to confuse with one another. The original membership of the PAC was comprised of Western Reserve, Case Tech, John Carroll and the University of Detroit, none of which are current members. Of course Western Reserve and Case Tech have since merged into Case Western Reserve which is now a member of the UAA but not of the PAC.

Frank-

What you wrote is what Wikipedia says, but they've got the wrong Detroit area school.

Per the PAC site:

1955 Western
Reserve University, John Carroll University and Case
Institute of Technology in Cleveland, and Wayne State University
come together to form the Presidents' Athletic Conference
1958 Four
more schools join the PAC. They were Allegheny College in
Meadville, PA, Bethany College in Bethany, WV, Thiel College in
Greenville, PA, and Washington and Jefferson College in
Washington, PA.
1962 The
University of Ypsilanti (Eastern Michigan) was accepted in
May 1962.
1966 Wayne
State and Eastern Michigan withdrew from the Conference
following the 1966-67
season

Adding to the confusion, CMU and CWRU return as football-only members in 2014.

Mr. Ypsi · September 17, 2012, 08:23:18 PM

Still one quibble with the posting: EMU has NEVER been the University of Ypsilanti. It began in 1849 as Michigan State Normal School (the first teacher school in Michigan, and only 6th in the country), became Michigan State Normal College in 1899, Eastern Michigan College in 1956, and since 1959 has been Eastern Michigan University.

ADL70 · September 17, 2012, 09:28:10 PM

Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on September 17, 2012, 08:23:18 PM
Still one quibble with the posting: EMU has NEVER been the University of Ypsilanti. It began in 1849 as Michigan State Normal School (the first teacher school in Michigan, and only 6th in the country), became Michigan State Normal College in 1899, Eastern Michigan College in 1956, and since 1959 has been Eastern Michigan University.

That didn't ring right to me either. I didn't have time to look further. Was actually thinking about a PM to you.

Wayne State was apparently once the College of the City of Detroit, but never the University of Detroit.

Ron Boerger · September 17, 2012, 11:00:42 PM

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 14, 2012, 01:52:49 PM
Just to clear up some potential confusion... Pool B's, as described, are their own group and are selected for an "at-large" bid before Pool C since they do not have access to an automatic qualifying bid due to the already described scenarios. Then all of the teams left in Pool B that did not get the bid are put into Pool C with all the teams from AQ conferences and the final 7 slots are selected. This is how a "Pool B" team may get another bid as described by Ron Boerger.

After big losses by Centre and Trinity last week, my thesis appears flawed.

K-Mack · September 18, 2012, 01:16:38 AM

Quote from: SpartanMom_2016 on September 07, 2012, 10:33:06 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on September 07, 2012, 12:50:11 PM
Quote from: SpartanMom_2016 on September 07, 2012, 10:44:56 AM
Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on September 07, 2012, 10:20:58 AM
Pool B is set aside for all teams who do not have access to an automatic bid for winning a conference (so independents and conferences like the UAA who don't have an automatic bid). The selection is basically like an at large bid but only amongst those eligible for Pool B.

What is the selection criteria?

Ralph provided the link to the FAQ -- this is a good time to go read it.

I read the FAQ.

The FAQ talks about the selection criteria for the at large bids, which is Pool C. How does Pool B differ from Pool C if the criteria for selecting teams is exactly the same?

The only way it differs is that Pool B is guaranteed to get at least one bid. Then any remaining Pool B teams go into the at-large Pool C.

The criteria for picking teams who do not win automatic bids (Pools B and C) are the same.

Hope we helped.

jknezek · September 18, 2012, 02:07:51 PM

Yeah Keith. That makes sense, but the uber-strong Pool B that we were expecting this year is looking quite a bit thinner. CMU is doing ok in the UAA, but that's it. The SAA still has some open shots with B-S, Millsaps, maybe Rhodes, but that will sort itself out. Trinity did itself no favors. Huntingdon already has a loss and their schedule is brutal. Wesley took a loss at home. These are all good teams, and there are plenty more, but at this stage of the season, I don't think any of us expected Pool B to have accumulated this many losses among the teams expected to be "elite". Trinity and Huntingdon could easily be 2 loss teams after this weekend. B-SC and Wesley still have to play (assuming B-SC comes from the SAA, and after watching the W&L game last weekend I don't see Centre challenging them). It doesn't seem to me you will have multiple undefeated teams in contention for the Pool B, and there might not even be multiple 1 loss teams. The uber-competitive B that we expected isn't looking that way right now.

Ralph Turner · September 18, 2012, 10:12:02 PM

Quote from: jknezek on September 18, 2012, 02:07:51 PM
Yeah Keith. That makes sense, but the uber-strong Pool B that we were expecting this year is looking quite a bit thinner. CMU is doing ok in the UAA, but that's it. The SAA still has some open shots with B-S, Millsaps, maybe Rhodes, but that will sort itself out. Trinity did itself no favors. Huntingdon already has a loss and their schedule is brutal. Wesley took a loss at home. These are all good teams, and there are plenty more, but at this stage of the season, I don't think any of us expected Pool B to have accumulated this many losses among the teams expected to be "elite". Trinity and Huntingdon could easily be 2 loss teams after this weekend. B-SC and Wesley still have to play (assuming B-SC comes from the SAA, and after watching the W&L game last weekend I don't see Centre challenging them). It doesn't seem to me you will have multiple undefeated teams in contention for the Pool B, and there might not even be multiple 1 loss teams. The uber-competitive B that we expected isn't looking that way right now.

Unless it is a bunch of uber-competitive group of two-loss teams.

jknezek · September 19, 2012, 09:05:50 AM

Quote from: Ralph Turner on September 18, 2012, 10:12:02 PM
Unless it is a bunch of uber-competitive group of two-loss teams.

Yes, but in terms of "B"s getting into the playoffs at the expense of "C"s, I know the criteria is the same and the committee seemed to have a sea change last year (SJF and SJF certainly backed it up), it is my understanding that a "B" has never gotten a "C". With all the strong teams competing for a "B" this year, I thought this might be the year it happened. Now, however, I think the odds are dropping with each loss. A 2 loss "B" being awarded a "C" seems significantly less likely. But on the heals of last year, who knows? When your "B" pool will contain Wesley, the UAA, the SAA, the SCAC, Huntingdon, and a few others there is a lot of havoc that can be created! Macalaster anyone?

ExTartanPlayer · September 19, 2012, 10:15:08 AM

Quote from: jknezek on September 19, 2012, 09:05:50 AM
When your "B" pool will contain Wesley, the UAA, the SAA, the SCAC, Huntingdon, and a few others there is a lot of havoc that can be created! Macalaster anyone?

As a fan of another possible B candidate if the stars align (CMU), I'll be interested to follow Macalaster this season.

If Macalaster goes undefeated AND they are the only undefeated team in Pool B, I will support them getting a Pool B bid, although we can all line up and qualitatively scream that Wesley, Trinity, CMU and whomever else could beat them head to head because of their tougher schedules.

I'm not comfortable with leaving undefeated teams out of the field because we've arbitrarily decided that going undefeated against their schedule didn't merit a playoff bid. How do we know they aren't better than we think? You never know when we'll leave out an undefeated "weak sister" that actually COULD have won a playoff game.

Worth noting: Macalaster will have to beat three MIAC teams to go undefeated; even if they are three of the lesser MIAC teams, all have a few wins to their credit this season. So they will have to beat a few semi-decent teams from one of Division III's better conferences. If they go undefeated, I think they'll have to earn it.

wally_wabash · September 19, 2012, 10:29:44 AM

Agree with jknezek here. I think the Pool B's at large chances in Pool C took a hit on Saturday. Not so much because the teams aren't as good as we thought, but because they went off and lost games that I don't think we expected them to lose. Certainly Centre losing to WL fits. I think Trinity's result to SRSU was a surprise to most, although it may have been difficult to judge SRSU based on their earlier schedule. Wesley's result to UMHB isn't nearly as much of a surprise, but it does do damage to the Wolverines. Consider that they have just three more D3 games left on the schedule: @ Lousiana College, vs. B-SC, @ Huntingdon. None are gimmes and if you're Wesley do you want to go to the selection committee with a 4-2 in-division record? I wouldn't. I know they took SJF over Endicott and maybe CWRU last year, but I certainly wouldn't look at that one invitation as a trend. Let's look at the others...

B-SC: big games left at Wesley, vs. Trinity, and at Centre. I think B-SC has the best chance to wrap up at at least 9-1 and ought to earn an invitation from either Pool B or C.

Trinity: vs UMHB, at B-SC, at Centre. I think the Tigers are in trouble. They can get back on track with a win against the Cru this weekend, but a second loss may well seal their at-large fate.

Centre: vs. Trinity, vs. B-SC...probably the easiest schedule of those I'm looking at here, just two real big games and both are at home. But that easier schedule may also wind up hurting them at selection time.

Also lurking out there is Carnegie Mellon. The Tartans have looked good so far and if they can split (or sweep) their games with Wabash and CWRU they may well wind up as a one loss team (or better) as well.

So, to sum it up because I kind of rambled there....I think you can lock Wesley in if they win the rest of their D3 games. If not, they may get invited but they are far from safe. B-SC will go if they can get two out of their big three. Trinity and Centre probably shouldn't lose any more games.

jknezek · September 19, 2012, 10:34:55 AM

Ex -- I didn't bring Macalaster up for any reason than the one you point out. IF they go undefeated, quite an IF but it's possible, they would be hard to leave out. So would a 1 loss Wesley (if that plays out) given who and how much they lost by. IF B-SC runs the SAA and only losses to Wesley, how could you leave them out? They would have wins over several good teams including Trinity. Same with Trinity running the table from here with a win agains B-SC. It's so early the possibilities are endless. But if you were going to ask me pre-season if by week 3 Wesley, Trinity, Centre, Huntingdon etc were all going to have losses, I wouldn't have bet on it. This incredibly strong Pool B looks very awkward right now.

As for your Tartans, they are currently on my South Region watch list. Hard to place because of who they play (mostly non-South Region teams) and a home win, even a big win, over Catholic isn't going to impress me much. But 3-0 has to be respected! Good luck with carrying through on the hot start.

Wally -- I'll say I agree with you, but Pool B has 1 spot this year. If Wesley runs the table I would think they get it. Is a 1 loss B-SC (Wesley) or a 1 loss Centre (W&L), or a 1 loss CMU etc going to be good enough to take a "C"? Yes I know, same criteria and A/B doesn't matter in C selection, but historically it hasn't happened that I know of. 2 history making years in a row? I wouldn't be opposed depending on how other things shake out, I'm just interested in whether it happens.