Which is the best conference for BOTH men's AND women's soccer?

[12SNoon]

Head over to the front page of D3Soccer.com today and you'll see the following question:

Which is the best conference for BOTH men's AND women's soccer?

I'd love to hear everyone's arguments here.

I'd also love to understand why people think D3Soccer omitted the conference that literally just won both the men's and women's national championships from this poll. Screenshot : http://cl.ly/0D47210o3O3v

[nescac1]

If you are talking combined, it's obviously NESCAC, and not even close.  NESCAC men's soccer now has four different national title winners over the past 20 years, including two in the past two years.  In addition, Williams, Amherst and Midd have all had multiple deep tourney runs that didn't result in titles over the years, and Bowdoin has also had many strong teams.  The bottom of the conference is almost never terrible, either.  NESCAC women's soccer is not quite as strong but does have the reigning champ now in Williams, which is right now the top D3 program in light of its two-year run with more to come, and Amherst, Tufts, and Middlebury have all had contending teams go deep into the tourney in recent years including several title game appearances.   

Messiah is obviously the best overall combined soccer program and no one is a close second, but the rest of its conference is mostly quite weak.  NESCAC men's and women's soccer are a combined 7-0-1 in the past two Final Fours, with three national champions (from three different schools).  That is insane! 

[Mr.Right]

Head over to the front page of D3Soccer.com today and you'll see the following question:

Which is the best conference for BOTH men's AND women's soccer?

I'd love to hear everyone's arguments here.

I'd also love to understand why people think D3Soccer omitted the conference that literally just won both the men's and women's national championships from this poll. Screenshot : http://cl.ly/0D47210o3O3v

They did it to get the reaction you just gave them. Extremely petty. It also makes no sense since half the people that give this site hits are Nescac faithful. If they feel like slamming it down Nescac's face let them. Let's just keep reminding them how Messiah Men;s soccer is becoming more irrelevant by the day.

[lastguyoffthebench]

If you're going with an NCAA Title perspective, it's the MACC with 18, NJAC with 17:

Messiah M:  10-0 in Title games
Messiah W:  5-3 in Title games

NJAC M:  5-5 (Rowan, Rowan, Kean, TCNJ, Stockton; Rowan, TCNJ, TCNJ, Rowan, Rutgers-Camden)
NJAC W:  3-4 (TCNJ across the board)
*5 of the 10 men's teams have made it to the NCAA title game in the last 20 years; 6 of the 10 teams have made the final 4.
10 of the 10 teams have made it to the NCAA tournament in the last 20 years.
2015 NJCU (1-16), even had spells of success where they made the tourney and were nationally ranked.

NESCAC M:  4-1 (Williams, Midd, Tufts, Amherst; Williams)
NESCAC W:  1-3 (Williams; Tufts, Amherst, Williams)
*4 of the 10 (11 in 2011) men's teams have made the NCAA title in the last 20 years.
Has Connecticut, Bates, or Colby ever made the tournament?

Messiah owns the NJAC in the NCAA tourney...

NESCAC vs NJAC in NCAA TOURNAMENT:   7-5 in favor of the NJAC.
2015:   Tufts 3, MSU 2.
2011:   Rutgers-Camden 2, Wesleyan 1
2010:   Middlebury 2, William Paterson 1
2006:   Montclair St 1, Wesleyan 0
2002:   Williams 4, Stockton 1
2000:   Rowan 2, Williams 1
1999:   Stockton 1, Williams 0   (ELITE 8)
1997:   TCNJ 2, Amherst 1
       Kean 5, Trinity 1.
       Trinity 2, Ramapo 1.   
1996:   TCNJ 1, Williams 0 (OT) (ELITE 8) (TCNJ won title)
1995:   Williams 3, TCNJ 0 (ELITE 8) (Williams won title)

[blooter442]

The NESCAC is hands-down the best conference in Division III Men's and Women's Soccer, and omitting that from said poll was kind of crazy. Have to say that I really didn't get that one, which was abnormal given that usually D3soccer.com is normally very on-point and objective from my experience. Why is such the case? Well, you can't argue with four national championships on the men's side from four different schools. If it was one school that won the whole thing four times, you could say that it was a bit of a monopoly, a la Messiah given that the MAC Commonwealth has 10 NCAA Men's Soccer titles, but the fact that four NESCAC sides have won the title speaks to the conference's quality - and that's not even mentioning the fact that Amherst was upset by No. 8 seed Wesleyan, at home, this year, a week after they won 5-0 against the same team. That speaks to the motto "any given Sunday [Saturday in that case]." On the women's side, Williams was actually the first NESCAC champ, but they were in the Final Four last year. It's not just about championships, though - I mean, Messiah has twice as many championships than the NESCAC combined - but what impresses me the most about the NESCAC is the sheer consistency that its member schools are able to get to the Final 4. You have to go back to 2011 for the last time that the NESCAC didn't have one men's representative in the Final 4, and before that it was 2006 if I'm not mistaken. The women have had a similarly sterling record of 5 Final Four appearances in the last 10 years. I'm a fan of a UAA school, and I do think that the UAA is an incredibly competitive conference and that many UAA schools could give NESCACs a game if the two were to play more often - the only regular meeting between the conference is the annual Tufts vs. Brandeis game that started in 2013. Additionally, I think that the UAA is similarly competitive as the NESCAC, top-to-bottom, However, the NESCAC's record in the NCAA Tournament speaks for itself, and is vastly superior to that of the UAA, so there really is no argument to be made in my opinion, although I myself would have the UAA a close second due to the sheer number of nationally-ranked squads. In addition to the fact that I live down the street from Tufts and within driving distance of many other member schools, I enjoy watching NESCAC teams because they play very good soccer and the league is competitive. Anyway, I personally think that the NESCAC is hands-down the best conference for both teams.

For the record, I think most NESCAC fans are objective and positive contributors to the board, and I enjoy conversing with them. However, what I can say is that I think part of the reason that there are so many NESCAC "haters" is when rival supporters perceive NESCAC fans as having a superiority complex. Case in point (albeit a homer point): in my own view it used to really rub me the wrong way that Brandeis - who had made it to the Sweet 16 both in 2012 and 2013 - wasn't given much respect by NESCAC fans before 2014. And not even in the "I don't think they'll get to the Final Four" fashion, but more like "they're not that great because they can't beat a NESCAC" kind of way. While I can understand the logic behind that - the Judges were 0-3 against NESCACs throughout 2012 and 2013 - and the Judges did struggle with physicality in both games, which the NESCAC sides took advantage of, we're talking about a team that made it to the last 16 in the country both years, and has a national title to its name. That is very respectable. And to be fair, both NESCAC teams that it played - Tufts and Williams - were top-four sides in the league both years, and I think if Brandeis had played a basement dweller like Colby or Hamilton or even a middle of the road side like Conn. or Wesleyan it would have had its way with them. Now, when Brandeis went and beat Tufts 2-0 at home last fall, it certainly turned a lot of heads, and Brandeis got some respect from the NESCAC, which was further enhanced by beating Bowdoin and then Amherst on PKs in the NCAA Tournament, and then Tufts again this year but it's safe to say that Brandeis got very little respect from NESCAC fans before the 2014 Tufts win. I will end by saying that I don't think Brandeis would win the NESCAC, not even close, but the point is that they weren't given much respect before they beat a NESCAC side. And I can understand that, but just explaining from an outsider's perspective why such a perception of NESCAC fans might exist.

Additionally, 12SNoon, did you really in your honest objective opinion think that Amherst would beat Brandeis 3-0 in last year's NCAA game? I myself thought that Amherst would win, but I honestly found that unbelievable and a touch disrespectful. Regardless, I have to say congrats to your Lord Jeffs this year - they were the best team in the country IMHO and fully deserved to win.

[Brother Flounder]

The NESCAC is hands-down the best conference in Division III Men's and Women's Soccer, and omitting that from said poll was kind of crazy. Have to say that I really didn't get that one, which was abnormal given that usually D3soccer.com is normally very on-point and objective from my experience. Why is such the case? Well, you can't argue with four national championships on the men's side from four different schools. If it was one school that won the whole thing four times, you could say that it was a bit of a monopoly, a la Messiah given that the MAC Commonwealth has 10 NCAA Men's Soccer titles, but the fact that four NESCAC sides have won the title speaks to the conference's quality - and that's not even mentioning the fact that Amherst was upset by No. 8 seed Wesleyan, at home, this year, a week after they won 5-0 against the same team. That speaks to the motto "any given Sunday [Saturday in that case]." On the women's side, Williams was actually the first NESCAC champ, but they were in the Final Four last year. It's not just about championships, though - I mean, Messiah has twice as many championships than the NESCAC combined - but what impresses me the most about the NESCAC is the sheer consistency that its member schools are able to get to the Final 4. You have to go back to 2011 for the last time that the NESCAC didn't have one men's representative in the Final 4, and before that it was 2006 if I'm not mistaken. The women have had a similarly sterling record of 5 Final Four appearances in the last 10 years. I'm a fan of a UAA school, and I do think that the UAA is an incredibly competitive conference and that many UAA schools could give NESCACs a game if the two were to play more often - the only regular meeting between the conference is the annual Tufts vs. Brandeis game that started in 2013. Additionally, I think that the UAA is similarly competitive as the NESCAC, top-to-bottom, However, the NESCAC's record in the NCAA Tournament speaks for itself, and is vastly superior to that of the UAA, so there really is no argument to be made in my opinion, although I myself would have the UAA a close second due to the sheer number of nationally-ranked squads. In addition to the fact that I live down the street from Tufts and within driving distance of many other member schools, I enjoy watching NESCAC teams because they play very good soccer and the league is competitive. Anyway, I personally think that the NESCAC is hands-down the best conference for both teams.

For the record, I think most NESCAC fans are objective and positive contributors to the board, and I enjoy conversing with them. However, what I can say is that I think part of the reason that there are so many NESCAC "haters" is when rival supporters perceive NESCAC fans as having a superiority complex. Case in point (albeit a homer point): in my own view it used to really rub me the wrong way that Brandeis - who had made it to the Sweet 16 both in 2012 and 2013 - wasn't given much respect by NESCAC fans before 2014. And not even in the "I don't think they'll get to the Final Four" fashion, but more like "they're not that great because they can't beat a NESCAC" kind of way. While I can understand the logic behind that - the Judges were 0-3 against NESCACs throughout 2012 and 2013 - and the Judges did struggle with physicality in both games, which the NESCAC sides took advantage of, we're talking about a team that made it to the last 16 in the country both years, and has a national title to its name. That is very respectable. And to be fair, both NESCAC teams that it played - Tufts and Williams - were top-four sides in the league both years, and I think if Brandeis had played a basement dweller like Colby or Hamilton or even a middle of the road side like Conn. or Wesleyan it would have had its way with them. Now, when Brandeis went and beat Tufts 2-0 at home last fall, it certainly turned a lot of heads, and Brandeis got some respect from the NESCAC, which was further enhanced by beating Bowdoin and then Amherst on PKs in the NCAA Tournament, and then Tufts again this year but it's safe to say that Brandeis got very little respect from NESCAC fans before the 2014 Tufts win. I will end by saying that I don't think Brandeis would win the NESCAC, not even close, but the point is that they weren't given much respect before they beat a NESCAC side. And I can understand that, but just explaining from an outsider's perspective why such a perception of NESCAC fans might exist.

Additionally, 12SNoon, did you really in your honest objective opinion think that Amherst would beat Brandeis 3-0 in last year's NCAA game? I myself thought that Amherst would win, but I honestly found that unbelievable and a touch disrespectful. Regardless, I have to say congrats to your Lord Jeffs this year - they were the best team in the country IMHO and fully deserved to win.

Good post Blooter.  I watch a lot of soccer. There is no question that the NESCAC is the most competitive. No cupcakes.  You won't see many goals and lots of points but its great soccer.  Honestly, after watching NESCAC games, I can't imagine the high individual statistics from some of the other conferences.  Brandeis would fit well in the NESCAC.  They certainly did earn NESCAC respect.  You make some valid points.  Oh, you know the saying... haters always gonna hate!

[Christan Shirk]

Well, this was an intersting topic to see here today, especially four days after the current "Reader's Poll" was published. For the record, I wrote the poll; I wrote the options; I take full responsibility.  Part of me wanted to wait until more people gave their perspectives on our poll (and specifically the options provided) before posting a response here, because I am genuinely curious if Mr. Right's take is representative of many others. But I won't delay.  And even though part of me would prefer to just post a big ol' "Lighten up! It was a joke!", I'm going to basically post here what I wrote in response to the few e-mails we received shortly after the poll was published on Sunday (e-mails, which I might add, though "concerned" about the absence of the "NESCAC" as an option, acknowledged the possibility of an honest oversight/clerical error--a granting of the benefit of the doubt that was appreciated).

Given the NESCAC had just claimed both men's and women's titles (something I assumed everyone reading and responding to the poll would know), the poll was somewhat of a rhetorical, toungue-in-cheek joke (not that a case couldn't be made for the UAA--actually a very strong case, and maybe another conference or two). I wanted to have fun with it as I have sometimes done in the past with our poll questions. But apparently what I intended to be funny (the blatant omission of the most glarringly obvious answer) hasn't translated for everyone even though I tried to make it rather obvious by placing the "other" option right where the NESCAC should have been listed instead of placing the "other" option at the very end of the list as is normal. I thought that would assure everyone would "get it" . . . if not right away, as least after a few seconds. 

My other option was to post the same poll question, but repeatedly list the NESCAC as option one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, and nine, with the obligatory "other" as option ten.  I opted for the more subtle, might-take-a-second-or-two-to-get approach knowing it might put a rise into some NESCAC fans until they got the joke (not if they got the joke). I miscalculated, apparently, whether that is due more to over-estimating my ability to execute the intended joke or under-estimating how seriously NESCAC fans take this stuff and wouldn't be able to find the humor in it, I don't know.

Bottom line, the honest truth is that the poll was/is meant as a light, humorous tip of the cap to the NESCAC, not an unintended oversight nor an intentional slight (neither of which would have been consistent with the website's complete body of work, in my opinion). I hope that most fans have picked up on that and have taken the poll in the sense it was/is intended. If not, it won't be the first nor last time I miss the mark, and I can live with that.

However, what would have the potential to bother me much more would be if the broader sentiments seemingly expressed by Mr. Right were representative of a larger segment of the fans on here and the visitors to our website. I truly hope not and would be surprised and disappointed to find that to be the case. Even if this particular poll didn't/doesn't sit right with some, I would hope that's not reflective of or consistent with a broader perception of the website. But, if it is, I am open to listening to Mr. Right and any others who believe they have reason to think D3soccer.com is guilty of or prone to (i) pettiness, (ii) unappreciativeness of NESCAC fans (or any segment of fans) for visiting/supporting the website, (iii) disrespect of NESCAC fans (or any segment fo fans), and (iv) biases and favoritism shown to certain schools (e.g. Messiah) or conferences. If there are instances or examples of these types of things, please specifically name them so they can be discussed and maybe we can learn and improve moving forward. (And that can be done openly on the message board or privately via e-mail.)

The Final Top 25 and All-America teams will be coming.  No promises on time-table.

[blooter442]

Well, this was an intersting topic to see here today, especially four days after the current "Reader's Poll" was published. For the record, I wrote the poll; I wrote the options; I take full responsibility.  Part of me wanted to wait until more people gave their perspectives on our poll (and specifically the options provided) before posting a response here, because I am genuinely curious if Mr. Right's take is representative of many others. But I won't delay.  And even though part of me would prefer to just post a big ol' "Lighten up! It was a joke!", I'm going to basically post here what I wrote in response to the few e-mails we received shortly after the poll was published on Sunday (e-mails, which I might add, though "concerned" about the absence of the "NESCAC" as an option, acknowledged the possibility of an honest oversight/clerical error--a granting of the benefit of the doubt that was appreciated).

Given the NESCAC had just claimed both men's and women's titles (something I assumed everyone reading and responding to the poll would know), the poll was somewhat of a rhetorical, toungue-in-cheek joke (not that a case couldn't be made for the UAA--actually a very strong case, and maybe another conference or two). I wanted to have fun with it as I have sometimes done in the past with our poll questions. But apparently what I intended to be funny (the blatant omission of the most glarringly obvious answer) hasn't translated for everyone even though I tried to make it rather obvious by placing the "other" option right where the NESCAC should have been listed instead of placing the "other" option at the very end of the list as is normal. I thought that would assure everyone would "get it" . . . if not right away, as least after few seconds. 

My other option was to post the same poll question, but repeatedly list the NESCAC as option one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, and nine, with the "obligatory "other" as option ten.  I opted for the more subtle, might-take-a-second-or-two-to-get approach knowing it might put a rise into some NESCAC fans until they got the joke (not if they got the joke). I miscalculated, apparently, whether that is due more to over-estimating my ability to execute the intended joke or under-estimating how seriously NESCAC fans take this stuff and wouldn't be able to find the humor in it, I don't know.

Bottom line, the honest truth is that the poll was/is meant as a light, humorous tip of the cap to the NESCAC, not an unintended oversight nor an intentional slight (neither of which would have been consistent with the website's complete body of work, in my opinion). I hope that most fans have picked up on that and have taken the poll in the sense it was/is intended. If not, it won't be the first nor last time I miss the mark, and I can live with that.

However, what would have the potential to bother me much more would be if the broader sentiments seemingly expressed by Mr. Right were representative of a larger segment of the fans on here and the visitors to our website. I truly hope not and would be surprised and disappointed to find that to be the case. Even if this particular poll didn't/doesn't sit right with some, I would hope that's not reflective of or consistent with a broader perception of the website. But, if it is, I am open to listening to Mr. Right and any others who believe they have reason to think D3soccer.com is guilty of or prone to (i) pettiness, (ii) unappreciativeness of NESCAC fans (or any segment of fans) for visiting/supporting the website, (iii) disrespect of NESCAC fans (or any segment fo fans), and (iv) biases and favoritism shown to certain schools (e.g. Messiah) or conferences. If there are instances or examples of these types of things, please specifically name them so they can be discussed and maybe we can learn and improve moving forward. (And that can be done openly on the message board or privately via e-mail.)

The Final Top 25 and All-America teams will be coming.  No promises on time-table.

Well played, FW. I had a suspicion that that was what it was. D3soccer.com is usually very objective, as I noted in my earlier comment, and as a neutral I certainly don't see any anti-NESCAC bias coming from it directly.

Either way, I think the big thing is that we all need to chill out.

[Part_Bart]

Huh.  I did not notice the NESCAC was not listed in the poll

[Mr.Right]

Honestly, I really did not care but since Noon started the topic I decided to reply. I will stand by my remarks of it being petty and stupid. I come to this site to banter with y'all and that is all fair game on the boards..BUT when I log onto D3Soccer.com's Main Page I expect and 95% of the time I receive  ABSOLUTE unbiased INFORMATION. I love everything about it especially the archives, history, rankings,etc...We do not need to get "cute" or "funny" on the main page. It causes more headaches I would imagine for the people that maintain the page then it is worth. NOTE: I also do not ever remember us having a poll that was "funny", if I am wrong please remind me.

Personally the polls are not even worth the hassle of trying to figure out a good enough question to ask...I would give the space to advertisements with Russian women with cleavage again

[blooter442]

I would give the space to advertisements with Russian women with cleavage again

[NJrexSoccer03]

Personally the polls are not even worth the hassle of trying to figure out a good enough question to ask...I would give the space to advertisements with Russian women with cleavage again

Now now Mr. Right. It should read "I would give space to advertisements with WOMEN with cleavage again." Don't discriminate!!  Your name should atleast make you type politically correct responses. Enjoyed the laugh +K from me all the time! Although I've never given any! I have never seen the ad though. Guess some of us are looking at some naughty things on their computers! I only get Wawa ads for food!

[lastguyoffthebench]

UAA Men's Conference Depth:
         
          CHAMPION
2015: Brandeis
2014: Chicago
2013: Rochester
2012: Brandeis
2011: Washington
2010: NYU
2009: CMU
2008: Emory
2007: Rochester
2006: CWRU

Over the last 10 years, every school in the conference EARNED the Championship, with Brandeis and Rochester 2x.  That's insane!

[blooter442]

To be fair, 2012 had a four-way tie between Brandeis, Carnegie, Emory, and WashU, 2011 had a tie between WashU and CWRU, 2009 was a dead heat including CMU, Chicago, and Rochester, and Rochester matched Emory in 2008. But that further speaks to the point that there is significant competition and parity in the UAA, and the fact that — with Brandeis' win this year — every UAA program has won the crown outright at some point is very impressive.

[lastguyoffthebench]

2015: Brandeis
2014: Chicago: 5-0-2   6 GF/1 GA     Winning a league with 6 goals scored!   3rd place Emory had 4 GF/4 GA.
2013: Rochester
2012: Brandeis;  In the 4 way tie with records of 4-2-1, Washington had 7 GF/5 GA
2011: Washington
2010: NYU: 4-0-3.  When you see Chicago's 6GF/1GA you'd think that would be the lowest ever, but NO.   NYU:  5 GF/0 GA
2009: CMU
2008: Emory
2007: Rochester
2006: CWRU