D1 vs D3 comparison

[titanalum94]

Somebody somewhere on d3boards.com claimed that the NCAA only requires a student-athlete to redshirt when transferring from D3 to D2 or D1, or from D2 to D1, if he plays football or men's basketball. I haven't combed through the NCAA rulebook to see if that's true, but it sounds plausible.

It's men's and women's basketball, football, baseball and ice hockey.

http://www.ncaa.org/student-athletes/current/transfer-terms

[PaulNewman]

I meant if Koh was offered scholarship to play at Stanford or Duke on front end would he really go to Chicago?  I agree few would chance leaving once already somewhere, especially if already happy.

And Syracuse is not UNC, UVA, Maryland or Wake.

Not arguing that really good D3 players couldn't play at mid-level D1s.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I meant if Koh was offered scholarship to play at Stanford or Duke on front end would he really go to Chicago?  I agree few would chance leaving once already somewhere, especially if already happy.

And Syracuse is not UNC, UVA, Maryland or Wake.

Not arguing that really good D3 players couldn't play at mid-level D1s.

We see this in a lot of sports in DIII... a lot of student-athletes will turn down offers to D1s and D2s for a number of reasons. Some of those SAs or others have told me over the years:
- Opportunity to play, win championships (conference and national), and be involved versus riding the bench primarily.
- More money in academic offers than in athletic scholarships (remember, outside of basketball and football ... D1 and D2 [all sports] split their scholarships up, so no one really gets a full ride) - there is also 22x more money in academic scholarships than in athletic scholarships in the entire NCAA.
- The major or career goals they are interested in are not offered by the D1 or D2 institutions - these SAs knowing that athletics is done after college.
- Other factors like close to home, friends or family at other college, familiarity, etc.

There are lots of other reasons like being passed over. Duncan Robinson who starred at Michigan the last three years in basketball... started out in Division III at Williams. Nearly helped the Ephs to a national title his freshman year (he hit the would-be game winner just seconds left in the game, before finding himself the last defender to stop the actual game winner in the other direction; he nearly hit a buzzer beater from 30' moments later). He had been missed by D1s in high school as he was a late bloomer. He would have stayed at Williams who he said he had committed to and wasn't going to leave, but his coach, who had also committed to, left for Marist, so it opened the door and Robinson took full advantage. He now has signed a deal with the Miami Heat.

Sometimes things happen and players are at DIII for a variety of reasons. A lot of them because they want to be here. If more students (and their families) stopped looking at the alor of scholarships as being the be-all and end-all of their careers, they would realize they have more opportunities, maybe more money, and certainly better situations in DIII than above.

[Gregory Sager]

Somebody somewhere on d3boards.com claimed that the NCAA only requires a student-athlete to redshirt when transferring from D3 to D2 or D1, or from D2 to D1, if he plays football or men's basketball. I haven't combed through the NCAA rulebook to see if that's true, but it sounds plausible.

It's men's and women's basketball, football, baseball and ice hockey.

http://www.ncaa.org/student-athletes/current/transfer-terms

Thanks, titanalum94, for saving me the trouble of looking it up. 

[PaulNewman]

Turning down a D1 scholarship at an athletically far superior (elite athletic D1) and academically comparable or superior school to go D3 is extremely rare.  Can we at least agree on that?

I do find the frequent soundbite of "coulda gone D1 but went D3" a little disingenuous.  OK, but you chose D3 and you played at the D3 level.  And turning down a mid major D1 seems different than turning down a perennial top 25 (athletic and academic) D1.

Should top level D1 student athletes choose D3 more often? Perhaps, but that's a different question.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Turning down a D1 scholarship at an athletically far superior (elite athletic D1) and academically comparable or superior school to go D3 is extremely rare.  Can we at least agree on that?

I do find the frequent soundbite of "coulda gone D1 but went D3" a little disingenuous.  OK, but you chose D3 and you played at the D3 level.  And turning down a mid major D1 seems different than turning down a perennial top 25 (athletic and academic) D1.

Should top level D1 student athletes choose D3 more often? Perhaps, but that's a different question.

First off... why do you have to find some way to argue with EVERYTHING people post. Dude. I was proving more to the point you had made. I wasn't arguing with you. I was providing more context. Ease off. Not everyone or every point is against you. No one said the idea you have isn't extremely rare... I simply said we know it happens that D1 offers are turned down for D3. I didn't say "athletically far superior (elite athletic D1)" in my example. I left it generic. However to that point, Robinson did seem to turn down some late, pretty good D1 offers, because he felt he had made a commitment to Williams.

Secondly, I never said I got the "coulda gone D1 but went D3" sound bite. In talking to SAs, coaches, administrators, or others, there is a refrain that athletes are sometimes proud to say ... yeah, I knew I had a chance to play, or I needed to focus on my academics, or I wasn't interested in what that school had to offer and so I came to DIII for a lot of good reasons.

And again ... where in my point did I talk about perennial Top 25? Where in your point did you talk about perennial Top 25 D1 programs? Why do you have to find something not mentioned to stir the pot or change the conversation. We were keeping it generic. That is the exact reason I also included D2. The point was, DIII student-athletes turn down offers from a lot of D1s and D2s for a lot of different reasons. Plain and simple.

As for top level D1's going to D3s instead... I could care less. That is their decision to make. I am not going to tell any of them what they "should" do or not. I feel DIII provides better opportunities on a much larger scale, but too many students and parents have their blinders on. If they don't get a D1 or D2 offer they either go JUCO to try and change minds ... or they go to a school and not even play athletics. I'm just saying, take the blinders off (and remove the misconceptions) and realize DIII isn't that bad.

[PaulNewman]

Wow.  I actually was not looking to be difficult.  I couldn't tell from your initial response whether you are mostly agreeing or not.  And then in the second one I was actually looking for where the consensus is.  I LOVE D3.  My kid played D3.  Is any nuance allowed?  I agreed that there can be exceptions.  I don't think saying that very few kids would choose D3 over extremely athletically and academically strong D1s assuming they really are going to be impact players for top D1s.  I assume you agree that your Williams to Michigan example is rare.  Stephenson who played soccer at Williams was pretty rare too.  At any rate, you are assuming a lot from very limited data about what and who I am.  You could ease up a little, or am I supposed to quake or something because of who you are.  The five paragraph lectures are a bit much.

[blooter442]

I get that we (and I include myself in this group) are generally defensive of D3 sports as an institution — hey, I think it's great if a kid who has D1-level talent decides to go D3 — and I am well aware of a number of cases where a player had interest from a D1 level but passed on it to go D3. In fact, I'm pretty sure I heard J. Ocel was being recruited strongly by BC, but chose Brandeis because his brother was already there and doing well athletically and academically, he would likely be one of the better players, and would be at a comparable institution in terms of academics (with an eye on dental school, I believe — in fact, his brother just graduated from dental school this year).

However, I do have to agree with Paul that I think it is quite rare that a kid being recruited by a top 25 D1 school will choose to go D3. Now, that's not saying it never happens — I personally have no doubt Nick West in particular could figure at a top D1 program — but I think he is a special case. For one, his brother had already had a great experience playing at Messiah for a program which is, at least historically, the gold standard for D3 soccer (and I would even extend that to modern day, given the Falcons' title last year and their 11 titles in total) for a number of years, and an article on his college selection outlined that the culture of the team (and the school) were big factors.

Now, if I myself was being recruited by both a top 25 D1 program that was average academically and a D3 like Chicago/Williams/WashU which is academically comparable to an Ivy, I personally would choose the D3 option. Of course, I say this fully recognizing that I never was in that position, and I also know that, to me, the desire to go to a school that is good academically is paramount to competing at a high athletic level. It is likely that some (perhaps most) student athletes in that position would not share this thought process.

Of course, a number of players have attracted interest from both D1 and D3 programs. All of them have to make the choice between the two (or 3, if we're including D2), however, and there are many reasons that those choices are made. That being said, I would say that it is rare for a top D1 prospect to choose D3. That doesn't mean it never happens, but it seems rare.

[truenorth]

This is always an interesting discussion, and one that seems to resurface each year.  As I've mentioned before, my older son was recruited by and was fortunate enough to play for Brown when they were a perennial top 25 D1 program, including one season they ended the regular season ranked #2 in the country.  My younger son received some light D1 recruiting interest, but was primarily recruited by academically inclined D3 schools.  He ended up choosing Bowdoin and was fortunate to play in a D3 Final Four.

My general observations: 
D1 players are generally faster and more athletic than D3 players.  They are not necessarily larger, but they are faster and more athletic.  And, on balance, D1 players are technically slightly better than their D3 counterparts.  They have to be...they're playing the game at a faster speed (think of mid-level Premier League vs. mid-level Serie A).

I believe many D1 players choose D1 not just because they're being recruited, but also because they're somewhat myopically focused on soccer and want to go as far as possible in the sport (to the extent the brain of a teenaged male thinks beyond the current moment).  Many talented soccer players who end up choosing D3 do so not just because they're not being recruited, but also because they have some awareness that they want a more rounded college experience (academics, athletics, study abroad, social life, etc.).

[PaulNewman]

This is always an interesting discussion, and one that seems to resurface each year.  As I've mentioned before, my older son was recruited by and was fortunate enough to play for Brown when they were a perennial top 25 D1 program, including one season they ended the regular season ranked #2 in the country.  My younger son received some light D1 recruiting interest, but was primarily recruited by academically inclined D3 schools.  He ended up choosing Bowdoin and was fortunate to play in a D3 Final Four.

My general observations: 
D1 players are generally faster and more athletic than D3 players.  They are not necessarily larger, but they are faster and more athletic.  And, on balance, D1 players are technically slightly better than their D3 counterparts.  They have to be...they're playing the game at a faster speed (think of mid-level Premier League vs. mid-level Serie A).

I believe many D1 players choose D1 not just because they're being recruited, but also because they're somewhat myopically focused on soccer and want to go as far as possible in the sport (to the extent the brain of a teenaged male thinks beyond the current moment).  Many talented soccer players who end up choosing D3 do so not just because they're not being recruited, but also because they have some awareness that they want a more rounded college experience (academics, athletics, study abroad, social life, etc.).

+K....you said basically what I was trying say much more effectively.

Just to be absolutely clear, I believe MANY of the better D3 players do or would choose a D3 over Patriot League schools, other mid-majors and sometimes perhaps Ivies.  The only tiny point I was trying to make is that one of Calipari's top 5 recruits each year don't turn down UK to attend Centre or Transy.  Yeah, I know, it's different because of the full rides, but still, the idea applies.

And the "coulda gone D1 but chose D3" was NOT directed at anyone here, and I apologize if the poster thought I was attributing that to him.  I was commenting on the larger discussion that truenorth noted resurfaces frequently.  I was referring to a refrain sometimes heard from parents on the sidelines of club games.

I know there are all sorts of reasons people make their choices....as it should be....usually folks argue that D1s offer more programs and the D3 argument is more about smaller classes, travel abroad, being able to have at least some social life, etc, etc....and there obviously is a huge difference between knowing you may sit on the bench for 4 years versus helping a D3 to the Final Four.  Context matters, too.  West looks like he could lead UVA to the Final Four in his current form, in his record-breaking senior season...doesn't mean he looked like that in his junior and senior year high school seasons or even during his good to very good first 3 years at Messiah.  And by saying that please don't conclude I'm saying he wasn't recruited by many legit D1s or could have been.

I have to say...I DO NOT like being targeted.  Some can quote every sentence and refute/prove something on each point in their mind and that's apparently fine.  I'm not disagreeing just to do it or to make anyone feel bad.  I've been posting for 5-6 years, and I've had my run-ins here and there, but when I engage in debates I do so as honestly as I can.  I've on occasion shown my feelings on my sleeve regarding my own team and biases but I think I've generally done so with transparency.  I've written articles for the site.  And often this type of forum, a lot like texting, can lead to misunderstanding what is being written or implied.  Now, if you've had some beef with me for 5 years, then by all means, let me know and let me have it....but don't act all high and mighty and super-judgmental based on a few weeks and a few series of posts.

[Falconer]

To the best of my knowledge, BC wanted Colby Thomas and Brown wanted Luke Groothoff. Having seen him play, I imagine almost anyone would want Groothoff.

Kai Kasiguran turned down Akron, ranked at or near #1 at the time.

[blooter442]

Having seen him play, I imagine almost anyone would want Groothoff.

Yeah Groothoff is a stud. He is someone I'd imagine a top 25 side would be after. He's already started very well and I think will only get better.

[Ommadawn]

Moves from D3 to D1 are unusual, and the story of Abdulkadir Haji (aka Said Haji, aka Siad Haji) is no exception.  His background is detailed at the following link:

https://www.topdrawersoccer.com/club-soccer-articles/abdulkadir-haji-making-most-of-new-home_aid25796

After not being able to travel from New Hampshire to Foxborough for the NE Revolution Academy, he went to a few USYNT camps (https://www.facebook.com/NHPSA/posts/nhpsas-abdulkadir-said-haji-attended-his-thrid-us-national-team-camp-with-the-u1/142229715956821/), played DA for Seacoast United (http://www.seacoastunited.com/us-soccer-development-academy/news/stories/haji-to-compete-with-u19-us-national-team-in-spain), and racked up 9 goals and 2 assists for D3 New England College in 2016 (https://athletics.nec.edu/roster.aspx?rp_id=2206) before transferring to and excelling at Virginia Commonwealth University (http://www.vcuathletics.com/sports/msoc/2018-19/bios/haji_siad_ku0t) and playing for the Portland Timbers PDL team (https://www.uslpdl.com/roster_players/24881017).

Norwich, the school Haji was originally committed to (https://www.norwichathletics.com/sports/msoc/2016-17/releases/20160720hrn5ph), could definitely have used him today against St. Joe's!

[rudy]

I meant if Koh was offered scholarship to play at Stanford or Duke on front end would he really go to Chicago?  I agree few would chance leaving once already somewhere, especially if already happy.

And Syracuse is not UNC, UVA, Maryland or Wake.

Not arguing that really good D3 players couldn't play at mid-level D1s.

Syracuse is an ACC team. Not a patriot league team. They just beat #1 Wake Forest a week ago. So I don't know what level of school you are talking about. West was mentioned and I just pointed out that he indeed was recruited to an ACC school. It seems you are talking about only the top handful of players highly recruited by dozens of top tier D1 schools. Yes sure in that case probably would not choose d3. Although wasn't Jack Thompson from a few years back the HS player of the year and offered at Akron but chose Messiah. Not positive about that.

Jack was not Gatorade poy so maybe I heard wrong or some other national award. https://playeroftheyear.gatorade.com/winner/national

But I understand he was recruited by Akron.. A program with 2.recent national championships.

[Gotberg]

Then there is the unusual situation when a player spends 2 years at D3(Carthage), before getting signed by English Championship side QPR, where he is practicing alongside US International Geoff Cameron.

Giles Phillips:   https://www.qpr.co.uk/squads/first-team