NCAA Tournament 2025

[camosfan]

A regular season game does not have to have a winner in a 16-game season, there are tie breakers, you are advocating bringing other sports rule into a unique game that predates all the sports you mentioned, and happens to be the most watched game in the world!

[Hopkins92]

Counterpoint, camo, is that COLLEGE soccer is different than what is watched all over the world in a few fundamental ways.

We've talked about the subbing.

And there is the weird way the clock is managed in college soccer.

I don't think tweaking the NPI formula (again, not a thing anywhere else in the world) would be such a radical move, for example.

I don't think taking players off is a great idea, because at 10v10 I think the difference is marginal and at 8v8, now you are asking guys to cover a TON more turf and we come back to player safety/attrition.

[camosfan]

I will acknowledge that the college game is a bit different at the moment, but they are slowly changing the rules to conform to international standards, I will say 5 years from now the timekeeping will change for example, the number of subs will be the hardest rule to change.

[Kuiper]

So a team like Haverford ended up 10-0-9 (lost last game on PK to the Muhls in the CC tournament) did not have a chance to win (or lose) almost half of their season and on top do not qual for the NCAA tourn. Spent the whole season unblemished, but end up 81st on the NPI.

FYI, field hockey (that is truly a dangerous sport, really), volleyball (best of 5 with extra points when tied at the end of each set), basketball, lacrosse (to the death), hockey!!!!, wrestling, football!!!!!!!!! etc, etc all go extra time/points in their games/matches to determine winners. Oh, yeah, baseball and softball play extra innings. Don't many of them have buses, planes, trains, boats, scooters, alpacas to catch??? Are soccer players just too dainty???

As to out west, they come a day early and they can have the game at 1 or 2 in the afternoon which most likely will leave enough time make an 8pm flight.

Some will say that these sports don't tie enough in reg. time. Oh, no, no, no, basketball, football and lacrosse maybe not, but goals are HUGE in fh and hockey.

Hockey and football CTE alert, but not enough injuries, future death, to not figure out a way to settle things. I would also argue that football, lacrosse, hockey, and, maybe, field hockey have equal or more injuries when compared to soccer. 

Yeah, I know it is the int'l way. Hah, we only play in the US.

If you are not bringing back extra time, make wins 4 pts and ramp up NPI for wins. Or maybe make ties .5 and continue wins 3 points. That'll make risk adverse coaches and players work harder in the 90 min. imo.

In baseball, they start with a man on second. Maybe in soccer have overtime with 10 v 10 in the first overtime and then 8 v 8 in the second?? That will cut down on over a bit??

After finishing 2-11-5 in 2024, I'm guessing Haverford's coach was overjoyed to go without a loss in 2025 and just make it to the Centennial conference tournament.  Weak teams and middling teams trying to stay above water end up playing for ties.  And once teams start playing for a tie, it kind of spreads through the conference since a point keeps you in the race. That's probably why Dickinson finished with 7 ties.  Conference teams that knew they couldn't hang with Dickinson's forwards played conservatively to avoid conceding and Dickinson had trouble beating a low block.  Muhlenberg, which seemed to stop scoring halfway through the season, also finished 8-3-9 in the Centennial, Swarthmore finished 5-6-6, and Washington College was 6-7-5.  Same issue in the NCAC, where Kenyon went 7-4-7, Ohio Wesleyan went 7-5-6, and Wittenberg went 7-4-7.  Similar story in the NEWMAC.  Coast Guard ended up 7-6-7, WPI was 8-7-5, Emerson was 6-8-5, and Salve Regina was 6-4-6 

As to why coaches in soccer decided to eliminate it because of travel issues and in other sports they did not, you would have to ask the coaches.  I don't know much about college field hockey (completely non-existent out west) and hockey (non-existent out here beyond the mountain time zone other than Alaska and Arizona State), but I think they are 60 rather than 90 minute run times, although I could be wrong. 

Regardless, my guess is something will be done at some point to increase the advantage of a win, whether adjusting the NPI formula or points.  Having said that, Williams was 10-2-11 in 2022, pre-NPI but post-repeal of OT, and no one made a move to limit ties even though Williams rode those ties all the way to the NCAA finals.  So, maybe it's here to stay.

[SierraFD3soccer]

I don't know much about college field hockey (completely non-existent out west) and hockey (non-existent out here beyond the mountain time zone other than Alaska and Arizona State), but I think they are 60 rather than 90 minute run times, although I could be wrong.

Yes 60 min (lacrosse and football too), but a lot of stopping and starting so most likely close to or over 90 min.

[Kuiper]

Who are everyone's surprise teams of the tournament? You can take the word "surprise" however you'd like. For me, I'm thinking about teams I had only seen on paper, but was surprised at how good they were when I actually tuned in to their games. In 2024, that team for me was Wisconsin-Eau Claire.

This year, my surprise team was Catholic- and particularly when I watched them against Amherst. Not only did they play a direct, punchy style--but mentally they were very strong and up for everything. My other surprise team was Babson. Even though they lost to Conn, they were a joy to watch. Super aggressive and press extremely well. I watched them score a wonder goal where they lobbed it to JR #9, who took it down on his chest, spun, and volleyed home a magnificant goal.

Texas Lutheran was a surprise for me, although they were a team I have watched quite a bit this year and in past years.  The surprise was how they broke out a different style - more pressing, more aggressive, more attack-minded - against Whitman to build up a 3-0 lead in the opening round before letting them back into the game after they went to their bench.  Even against Trinity, they put up more of a fight than Wash U or Augsburg did. 

Unlike some teams making the tournament for the first time (or the first time in a long time), this wasn't a senior-laden lineup that did it either.  Against Trinity and Whitman, Texas Lutheran had 5 freshman, 1 sophomore, and 2 juniors in the starting lineup, plus two freshman and 4 sophomores played significant minutes off the bench. A freshman had a brace against Whitman and a junior scored the other goal.  They graduate 11 players, but most of the significant contributors down the stretch were the younger players.  They could be a problem for a lot of teams next year if they continue to play the way they did in the tournament.

[SierraFD3soccer]

Counterpoint, camo, is that COLLEGE soccer is different than what is watched all over the world in a few fundamental ways.

We've talked about the subbing.

And there is the weird way the clock is managed in college soccer.

I don't think tweaking the NPI formula (again, not a thing anywhere else in the world) would be such a radical move, for example.

I don't think taking players off is a great idea, because at 10v10 I think the difference is marginal and at 8v8, now you are asking guys to cover a TON more turf and we come back to player safety/attrition.

Time keeping in the NCAA is just crazy the way they do it. My x feed just pointed out that TCU women's score a tying goal against UNC with less than 9 seconds left. However, that should never had happened.

At about the 2 min level, the time keeper froze the clock for over 13 seconds. TCU would win in PKs and go to the quarters. Extreme example? Maybe, but just something that should never happen especially in the NCAA tournament. Those seniors are never getting that game back or that opportunity.

I think the NCAAs is the only place where the center ref does not keep the time. I did 18U games and below and had not problem keeping time.

[Kuiper]

Happy Thanksgiving!  Some Odds and Ends about the Final Four that may only be of interest to me:

1.  This is the first time since 2019 that there is no team in the Final Four with "Washington" in its name

2024 - Washington & Lee
2023 - Washington College (MD) and Washington & Lee
2022 - Mary Washington
2021 - Washington & Lee

It was right there for Wash U to extend the streak, but t'was not to be.  In terms of Washington schools to watch in the future, Washington & Jefferson this season had its first winning record and first PAC Tournament qualification since 2019.

2.  We're not in Vegas anymore

Vegas weather last year High 68/Low 48

Salem's current forecast for the Men's game days

Friday Dec. 5th High 42/Low 35
Sunday Dec. 7th High 44/Low 34

3.  It could be worse

Here's a peek ahead at what the weather might be like the next two years based on this year's forecast:

Columbus (2026) High 36/Low 27 w/ snow showers
Pittsburgh (2027) High 34/Low 27 w/ snow showers

4.  Final Four Histories of the 4 schools (Bold = winner, Underline = runners up)

Tufts 2014, 2016, 2018, 2019

Trinity 2003, 2007, 2002

St. Olaf 2023

Emory None

5.  Experience playing in the Final Four at Roanoke College in Salem, VA

Tufts - won the 2016 championship in Salem
St. Olaf - won the 2023 championship in Salem

6.  Current head coaches of Final Four teams who have experience winning a national championship

Justin Oliver - St. Olaf 2023
Paul McGinlay - Trinity 2003 (Yes, McGinlay, who began coaching at Trinity in 1991, has coached Trinity in all three of their Final Four appearances)

[Ron Boerger]

McGinlay's 590 wins trails only D2 Rockhurst's Tony Tocco's 751 in number of wins by an active NCAA coach.  If Tocco can hang on for a couple more years, he could overtake Ohio Wesleyan's Jan Martin, who retired at the end of 2024 with 774 wins to lead all NCAA coaches.

• Martin got his 774 in a 47 year OWU career.  He continues at OWU as their Director of Sport Performance.
• Tocco is in his 55th year, all at Rockhurst, where he started coaching in 1970. As a 1967 graduate of St. Louis University, he's closing in on the big 8-0.  Most of Tocco's wins, 437, came while Rockhurst was an NAIA school but the NCAA credits those in his total.  Besides heading the soccer team, he's a full-time professor and head of the accounting department at Rockhurst.
• McGinlay is the rookie of these three, now in his 35th season at Trinity.

[camosfan]

I admire people who can spend decades doing the same thing at the same location!

[Kuiper]

I thought people might be interested in this mid-season profile of Emory star player (and former Amherst star) Ignacio Cubeddu from the Emery school newspaper

Coming off back-to-back University Athletic Association championships, the Emory University men's soccer team has shown no signs of slowing down this season. The team currently has a remarkable 11–0-2 record, earning them a third-place national ranking amongst Division III schools. A huge key to the team's success has been the addition of graduate forward Ignacio Cubeddu.

As an undergraduate, Cubeddu played at Amherst College (Mass.). He played in 46 total matches, scoring eight goals and tallying 11 assists. Cubeddu also was a part of Amherst's four separate national title game appearances. Amherst lost the first three, but finally took the trophy home in 2024.

Coming into a new program with a different style than he was used to at Amherst, Cubeddu did not want to take over and try to change the system. Instead, he said he has worked hard to fit in with the ethos of the team and be a leader by example.

"If I were to come in and try to change things, I think that would create some frictions," Cubeddu said. "For me, it was just embracing the culture that they have, being a good teammate and talking on the field, and now that's going to lead to better things."

Cubeddu has certainly succeeded at his leadership role, as the players on the team take notice of his work ethic and determination. Cubeddu follows a strict diet, which helps him stay focused and recover. He also does extra work after practice and visualizes before every match. Grand said he and his teammates take note of Cubeddu's actions and use it to motivate themselves to be better.

"I don't think I've ever seen anyone with the diet, the determination and the focus during my time at Emory as he has," Grand said. "It definitely gets everyone else in check when...you see him eating his sardines from a can and just doing wind sprints after practice."

"The talent is there, the mindset's there, the guys are hungry this year and the coach gives us the freedom to to play our game," Cubeddu said. "We're having fun, we're doing well."

For Cubeddu, it is especially important to enjoy his last college season. He said staying focused on his primary goal has helped to keep him motivated in his final season.

"I want to win, I need to win," Cubeddu said. "It's a national championship or nothing for me. That's the mentality I really want to have."

[Kuiper]

Another student newspaper story about a Final Four team that might be of interest, in part because it's an oft-discussed topic on this Board - the growth of D3 rosters.  In this story, the writer suggests that the reduction in the size of the Trinity roster before this year helped team culture and the competitiveness of practice. Given the team's success, it's hard to argue with the results.

Over the past year and a half, the Trinity men's soccer team has lost two games total between the regular season and playoffs, making it all the way to the final 16 teams of the NCAA Division III playoffs last year. Meanwhile, this year's seniors were a part of the first team under Head Coach Paul McGinlay to fail to make the national tournament since 2001, not including the shortened 2020 season.

There are a lot of reasons why Trinity has seen such a transition over the past four seasons, one of those being significant roster cuts, according to McGinlay.

"It was out of necessity," McGinlay said. "It's hard to run a program with that many players. We'd be on away trips, with 24 players and 18 left at home. It doesn't bring a group of players together."

Until last season, men's soccer kept a substantial number of players on their roster. At points, the program was basically split into two teams, according to Aguilar.

"There was 'September Squad,' a squad for people who didn't make the first team but wanted to be on the team," Aguilar said. "Mentally, it was hard to be there. You came to training to play and to get minutes, and we were not even considered."

This situation, according to Aguilar, was a less-than-ideal playing environment, and McGinlay knew it.

"Everyone wants to be on the squad [by] Labor Day weekend," McGinlay said. "But when it comes to that third weekend in October, and they haven't played and haven't traveled, there's no way of keeping that enthusiasm and competitive edge. It becomes a drag to practice, and it shows."

The challenges of leading such a large squad go further than managing the time and involvement of all the players. Team culture takes a hit as well, Aguilar said.

"There was segregation between [first-year] classes and senior classes because there were so many of us," Aguilar said. "There were so many players that there was always competition, and sometimes it turned toxic."

For the 2024 season, McGinlay and his staff decided to give players the option to redshirt, where a student athlete delays a year of participation to preserve one of their four years of eligibility. The coaching staff encouraged players to take that option, and some did, while others didn't. Players who weren't even presented with that idea also decided that a year off would be better for them, according to junior defender Luke Mayfield.

During the year McGinlay adopted redshirting, the Tigers went undefeated through the entire season until the third round of the NCAA Division III playoffs, winning the SCAC for the first time since 2018 along the way. McGinlay said he wasn't satisfied, though. During spring exit meetings with players, McGinley pitched the idea to release players to reach a specific roster size.

"There wasn't one person who went through a spring individual meeting and didn't agree that smaller was going to be better," McGinlay said.

Under the smaller system, Trinity has won nine of 10 games to begin the year. However, Trinity's record wasn't the only thing that improved. Mayfield said the team culture improved, too.

"It's fewer people who need to hop on board with the team mentality," Mayfield said. "If everybody's on the same page in the locker room, then we're going to be on the same page on the field."

A few reactions:

1.  Not sure the issue at Trinity was roster size per se.

To put this story in perspective, the 2025 Trinity roster is 36, which is still pretty large.  The 2024 roster was 40 (when they apparently "red-shirted" some players).  The 2023 roster was 31.  The 2022 roster was 41.  It seems like the big dip was from '22 to '23, which would make sense since 2022 was the last season Trinity missed out on the NCAA tournament  Perhaps there was the backsliding because of transfers and big recruiting classes and they're still fighting it.  I suspect the author of the article - Scott Lebo, who is the play-by-play commentator on Trinity's broadcasts and is very insightful and good at the job on the Trinity broadcasts - is recalling a bit of his own circumstances since he left the Trinity soccer team after the 2022 season (because of what he later wrote was post-concussive syndrome).

My guess is the real story is "deadweight" (players who weren't likely to play much, if at all).  I think that's different than roster size per se.  A large roster where the freshman aren't playing much, but are spending the year developing and competing for time in the future, is very different than one where there are juniors and seniors who know they aren't ever going to play much.  The question is whether those upperclassmen are providing leadership and accountability or are just burned out and going through the motions, missing practices etc.  The latter is a killer for team culture for sure.

2.  Travel and communication is an important aspect of roster size

It's one thing to have players on a 28 person roster who don't play much but get to go to all games, feel like a part of the team, and are never explicitly or implicitly given a signal that there is no chance they will play. They still have hope, even if it's only through injuries or a blowout.  It's another thing when every week you have to check to see if you made the travel roster and then it's very publicly made known that you didn't make the cut.  That was probably made harder this year for Trinity because they had more air travel due to joining the SAA (although Trinity actually got a lot of home SAA games this year).

3.  Trinity is a team where the whole is better than the sum of its parts, making team culture very important

There are teams with more talented and more athletic players than Trinity in the Final Four.  Trinity's strength is playing as a team, passing and moving very effectively, anticipating each other's movement, having great technical ability in tight spaces, and having players two deep at almost every position who can do all of the above so that the team can continue seamlessly when subs come in.  That requires a very high level of competition during practice and great team culture.  In that sense, Trinity's move to make decisions that benefit team culture makes a lot of sense.   

[stlawus]

Another student newspaper story about a Final Four team that might be of interest, in part because it's an oft-discussed topic on this Board - the growth of D3 rosters.  In this story, the writer suggests that the reduction in the size of the Trinity roster before this year helped team culture and the competitiveness of practice. Given the team's success, it's hard to argue with the results.

Over the past year and a half, the Trinity men's soccer team has lost two games total between the regular season and playoffs, making it all the way to the final 16 teams of the NCAA Division III playoffs last year. Meanwhile, this year's seniors were a part of the first team under Head Coach Paul McGinlay to fail to make the national tournament since 2001, not including the shortened 2020 season.

There are a lot of reasons why Trinity has seen such a transition over the past four seasons, one of those being significant roster cuts, according to McGinlay.

"It was out of necessity," McGinlay said. "It's hard to run a program with that many players. We'd be on away trips, with 24 players and 18 left at home. It doesn't bring a group of players together."

Until last season, men's soccer kept a substantial number of players on their roster. At points, the program was basically split into two teams, according to Aguilar.

"There was 'September Squad,' a squad for people who didn't make the first team but wanted to be on the team," Aguilar said. "Mentally, it was hard to be there. You came to training to play and to get minutes, and we were not even considered."

This situation, according to Aguilar, was a less-than-ideal playing environment, and McGinlay knew it.

"Everyone wants to be on the squad [by] Labor Day weekend," McGinlay said. "But when it comes to that third weekend in October, and they haven't played and haven't traveled, there's no way of keeping that enthusiasm and competitive edge. It becomes a drag to practice, and it shows."

The challenges of leading such a large squad go further than managing the time and involvement of all the players. Team culture takes a hit as well, Aguilar said.

"There was segregation between [first-year] classes and senior classes because there were so many of us," Aguilar said. "There were so many players that there was always competition, and sometimes it turned toxic."

For the 2024 season, McGinlay and his staff decided to give players the option to redshirt, where a student athlete delays a year of participation to preserve one of their four years of eligibility. The coaching staff encouraged players to take that option, and some did, while others didn't. Players who weren't even presented with that idea also decided that a year off would be better for them, according to junior defender Luke Mayfield.

During the year McGinlay adopted redshirting, the Tigers went undefeated through the entire season until the third round of the NCAA Division III playoffs, winning the SCAC for the first time since 2018 along the way. McGinlay said he wasn't satisfied, though. During spring exit meetings with players, McGinley pitched the idea to release players to reach a specific roster size.

"There wasn't one person who went through a spring individual meeting and didn't agree that smaller was going to be better," McGinlay said.

Under the smaller system, Trinity has won nine of 10 games to begin the year. However, Trinity's record wasn't the only thing that improved. Mayfield said the team culture improved, too.

"It's fewer people who need to hop on board with the team mentality," Mayfield said. "If everybody's on the same page in the locker room, then we're going to be on the same page on the field."

A few reactions:

1.  Not sure the issue at Trinity was roster size per se.

To put this story in perspective, the 2025 Trinity roster is 36, which is still pretty large.  The 2024 roster was 40 (when they apparently "red-shirted" some players).  The 2023 roster was 31.  The 2022 roster was 41.  It seems like the big dip was from '22 to '23, which would make sense since 2022 was the last season Trinity missed out on the NCAA tournament  Perhaps there was the backsliding because of transfers and big recruiting classes and they're still fighting it.  I suspect the author of the article - Scott Lebo, who is the play-by-play commentator on Trinity's broadcasts and is very insightful and good at the job on the Trinity broadcasts - is recalling a bit of his own circumstances since he left the Trinity soccer team after the 2022 season (because of what he later wrote was post-concussive syndrome).

My guess is the real story is "deadweight" (players who weren't likely to play much, if at all).  I think that's different than roster size per se.  A large roster where the freshman aren't playing much, but are spending the year developing and competing for time in the future, is very different than one where there are juniors and seniors who know they aren't ever going to play much.  The question is whether those upperclassmen are providing leadership and accountability or are just burned out and going through the motions, missing practices etc.  The latter is a killer for team culture for sure.

2.  Travel and communication is an important aspect of roster size

It's one thing to have players on a 28 person roster who don't play much but get to go to all games, feel like a part of the team, and are never explicitly or implicitly given a signal that there is no chance they will play. They still have hope, even if it's only through injuries or a blowout.  It's another thing when every week you have to check to see if you made the travel roster and then it's very publicly made known that you didn't make the cut.  That was probably made harder this year for Trinity because they had more air travel due to joining the SAA (although Trinity actually got a lot of home SAA games this year).

3.  Trinity is a team where the whole is better than the sum of its parts, making team culture very important

There are teams with more talented and more athletic players than Trinity in the Final Four.  Trinity's strength is playing as a team, passing and moving very effectively, anticipating each other's movement, having great technical ability in tight spaces, and having players two deep at almost every position who can do all of the above so that the team can continue seamlessly when subs come in.  That requires a very high level of competition during practice and great team culture.  In that sense, Trinity's move to make decisions that benefit team culture makes a lot of sense.   

I'm sure someone has mentioned it but I didn't find out until very recently they have a player that's the son of a member of Radiohead.

[Ron Boerger]

I'm sure someone has mentioned it but I didn't find out until very recently they have a player that's the son of a member of Radiohead.

I know I've mentioned it here, but it's been years since Ed O'Brien's son joined the squad.  McGinlay was the person who not only recruited his son, but got Ed to give a talk at Trinity in 2022.

[Kuiper]

I'm sure someone has mentioned it but I didn't find out until very recently they have a player that's the son of a member of Radiohead.
[/quote]

Ironically, he's one of those players who hasn't gotten a lot of minutes the past three years, although it's pretty handy to have a 6'4" CB on the bench when you need one (his father is listed at 6'5", which makes band photos kind of comical unless they have him standing in a hole or the others on stools).