A discussion has been started in the CCIW room about the NCAA having the same site for both the men and women for the final basketball championship weekend. It already has been very successful in D-III soccer, and I can attest that the athletes and fans enjoy having a single site in that sport. Opinions, pro and/or con?
8 games in two days? Oof... certainly possible... but that is a lot of basketball and someone is going to get the short end of the stick.
I am not sure the Division III powers that be want to add a day to the weekend or play semifinal games in the afternoon to accomplish this. That would be the short end of the stick Dave refers to.
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 13, 2012, 11:23:41 AM
8 games in two days? Oof... certainly possible... but that is a lot of basketball and someone is going to get the short end of the stick.
I'd say six games. Honestly no one really needs the third place game or an all-star game. Fitting in 16 hours of required practice time on the same court and still having banquets and making it special would be the bigger challenge.
Soccer has done it, so it's not impossible, but it would be tough.
Just Bill... you haven't seen the all-star game, then. It is worth keeping and a nice way of saluting some of the best seniors in the nation.
I don't have doubt that it is a nice thing to do. I'm just saying it's not necessary in the administration of a championship event.
Quote from: Just Bill on March 13, 2012, 11:50:36 AM
I don't have doubt that it is a nice thing to do. I'm just saying it's not necessary in the administration of a championship event.
Once you're committed to playing the four games on Friday, it's not such a big deal to play three on Saturday.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 13, 2012, 11:53:36 AM
Quote from: Just Bill on March 13, 2012, 11:50:36 AM
I don't have doubt that it is a nice thing to do. I'm just saying it's not necessary in the administration of a championship event.
Once you're committed to playing the four games on Friday, it's not such a big deal to play three on Saturday.
In this hypothetical though, I'd rather let the four championship game teams get their 60 minute shootaround on Saturday at reasonable times rather than have an All-Star game and a third place game. Just my opinion.
Pat, do they try to keep the games at night to attract the local crowd? I've always wondered why they didn't play the games in the morning/early afternoon and put them on TV before the d1 tournament kicks off at 3EST.
They used to do that for d2 and d3 didn't they? I feel like I remember seeing those games on CBS in the 90's.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 13, 2012, 11:56:51 AM
Pat, do they try to keep the games at night to attract the local crowd? I've always wondered why they didn't play the games in the morning/early afternoon and put them on TV before the d1 tournament kicks off at 3EST.
They used to do that for d2 and d3 didn't they? I feel like I remember seeing those games on CBS in the 90's.
They would move times around for broadcast TV when that was done. Broadcast TV is no longer interested in us anymore, however. So now they play evenings so each team can get close to a 24 hour rest period between games.
C'mon Pat, think selfishly! You'd much rather deploy the total D3Hoops full court coverage at one site, than two.
It would be good for us staffing-wise but I'm thinking of the fan and player experience and I'm not sure it's worth it. The women's championship would definitely play second-fiddle in the local media. The soccer folks may love it but I'm not sure how much play either championship got in the San Antonio media, and if it did, I'm sure women's soccer got less, especially if you exclude almost-local Hardin-Simmons from 2010.
Believe me, we've certainly heard much crazier ideas, but not sure this one would be an enhancement to the championship. And despite what was said above, I'm not sure Salem would actually be interested in hosting such an event.
For the record, I'm not really in favor of it either. I think the headaches outweigh the benefits. If putting them together got us something big, like guaranteed TV coverage on a decent network or something else positive, then I might think harder about it.
It may 'diminish' the championship of one tourney to combine with the other. Let each have their glory.
Crazy idea:
Women's Semifinals in Holland, MI on Friday
Men's Semifinals in Grand Rapids, MI on Friday
All Star Game + Women's Final + Men's Final in Grand Rapids, MI on Saturday.
'Traveling' for the Women between the two venues wouldn't be ideal, but it would be a way to allow one big championship event without really screwing anyone over.
Quote from: KnightSlappy on March 13, 2012, 04:55:04 PM
Crazy idea:
Women's Semifinals in Holland, MI on Friday
Men's Semifinals in Grand Rapids, MI on Friday
All Star Game + Women's Final + Men's Final in Grand Rapids, MI on Saturday.
I went to Grand Rapids once, it was closed. ;)
Quote from: KnightSlappy on March 13, 2012, 04:55:04 PM
Crazy idea:
Women's Semifinals in Holland, MI on Friday
Men's Semifinals in Grand Rapids, MI on Friday
All Star Game + Women's Final + Men's Final in Grand Rapids, MI on Saturday.
'Traveling' for the Women between the two venues wouldn't be ideal, but it would be a way to allow one big championship event without really screwing anyone over.
If you were going to double up on venues, something I thought about, there's probably better locales to do it - larger cities with a number of big enough facilities. D1 doesn't use gyms as small as d3 needs for their opening round, the only potential conflicts might be HS championships.
Philadelphia, for example, has the Palestra and also Temple's gym, which each seat about 8,000. That's probably a little bigger than Salem, but have to be other cities with similar sets ups (Chicago, maybe).
Quote from: Knightstalker on March 13, 2012, 04:56:55 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on March 13, 2012, 04:55:04 PM
Crazy idea:
Women's Semifinals in Holland, MI on Friday
Men's Semifinals in Grand Rapids, MI on Friday
All Star Game + Women's Final + Men's Final in Grand Rapids, MI on Saturday.
I went to Grand Rapids once, it was closed.
I was born in Grand Rapids. Left at 9 months old; I have never been back.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 13, 2012, 05:02:38 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on March 13, 2012, 04:55:04 PM
Crazy idea:
Women's Semifinals in Holland, MI on Friday
Men's Semifinals in Grand Rapids, MI on Friday
All Star Game + Women's Final + Men's Final in Grand Rapids, MI on Saturday.
'Traveling' for the Women between the two venues wouldn't be ideal, but it would be a way to allow one big championship event without really screwing anyone over.
If you were going to double up on venues, something I thought about, there's probably better locales to do it - larger cities with a number of big enough facilities. D1 doesn't use gyms as small as d3 needs for their opening round, the only potential conflicts might be HS championships.
Philadelphia, for example, has the Palestra and also Temple's gym, which each seat about 8,000. That's probably a little bigger than Salem, but have to be other cities with similar sets ups (Chicago, maybe).
We've learned over time that D-III championships in large metro areas suffer from being overshadowed and ignored (see Danbury, CT). Medium size cities work much better (see Salem, Holland, Bloomington, Terre Haute)
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 13, 2012, 12:09:15 PM
It would be good for us staffing-wise but I'm thinking of the fan and player experience and I'm not sure it's worth it. The women's championship would definitely play second-fiddle in the local media. The soccer folks may love it but I'm not sure how much play either championship got in the San Antonio media, and if it did, I'm sure women's soccer got less, especially if you exclude almost-local Hardin-Simmons from 2010.
Believe me, we've certainly heard much crazier ideas, but not sure this one would be an enhancement to the championship. And despite what was said above, I'm not sure Salem would actually be interested in hosting such an event.
as someone who has been tp several finals fours at the same site in soccer, i can tell you that the athletes and the fans LOVE being together -- especially, if both your teams (like illinois wesleyan this year, and possibly amherst could have been in the same situation -- but their men were forced to go on the road in the sectional round). it's easy enough to come up with a practice schedule and have the banquet on the same date (thursday). i would also say that the media coverage was equal.
every other year, the men and women switch back and forth between playing in the afternoon and the evening. only chauvenists would complain about the men having to play in the "perceived" afternoon spots.
the basketball committees need to talk to the soccer committees. there are significant advantages to having both championships at the same sites on the same weekend. it is awesome.
Quote from: Just Bill on March 13, 2012, 05:06:03 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 13, 2012, 05:02:38 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on March 13, 2012, 04:55:04 PM
Crazy idea:
Women's Semifinals in Holland, MI on Friday
Men's Semifinals in Grand Rapids, MI on Friday
All Star Game + Women's Final + Men's Final in Grand Rapids, MI on Saturday.
'Traveling' for the Women between the two venues wouldn't be ideal, but it would be a way to allow one big championship event without really screwing anyone over.
If you were going to double up on venues, something I thought about, there's probably better locales to do it - larger cities with a number of big enough facilities. D1 doesn't use gyms as small as d3 needs for their opening round, the only potential conflicts might be HS championships.
Philadelphia, for example, has the Palestra and also Temple's gym, which each seat about 8,000. That's probably a little bigger than Salem, but have to be other cities with similar sets ups (Chicago, maybe).
We've learned over time that D-III championships in large metro areas suffer from being overshadowed and ignored (see Danbury, CT). Medium size cities work much better (see Salem, Holland, Bloomington, Terre Haute)
Colorado Springs has 10,000 seat World Arena and the Air Force Academy gym seats about 6,000-8,000. Geographically that's a mess, but there could be others.
I recognize that having the city glad to host is important, but we already compete with the second round of the NCAAs - there's only so many locals who are going to be interested and that would likely happen anywhere.
Maybe I'm naive. Is Salem its own media market? Does local TV cover the final four well?
I like the idea of both tournaments happening in the same place, but I agree, you may need two arena to accommodate it on a weekend.
I wonder if d3 could bid its tournament separately. That new NBC sports network is going to need major sport programming - they might foot the bill for an extra day to fit all the games in.
Roanoke is a media market and they do alright by the Final Four in terms of TV and newspaper coverage, considering what else is going on in sports and basketball at the same time.
Quote from: cciwrabblerouser on March 13, 2012, 07:31:44 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 13, 2012, 12:09:15 PM
It would be good for us staffing-wise but I'm thinking of the fan and player experience and I'm not sure it's worth it. The women's championship would definitely play second-fiddle in the local media. The soccer folks may love it but I'm not sure how much play either championship got in the San Antonio media, and if it did, I'm sure women's soccer got less, especially if you exclude almost-local Hardin-Simmons from 2010.
Believe me, we've certainly heard much crazier ideas, but not sure this one would be an enhancement to the championship. And despite what was said above, I'm not sure Salem would actually be interested in hosting such an event.
as someone who has been tp several finals fours at the same site in soccer, i can tell you that the athletes and the fans LOVE being together -- especially, if both your teams (like illinois wesleyan this year, and possibly amherst could have been in the same situation -- but their men were forced to go on the road in the sectional round). it's easy enough to come up with a practice schedule and have the banquet on the same date (thursday). i would also say that the media coverage was equal.
every other year, the men and women switch back and forth between playing in the afternoon and the evening. only chauvenists would complain about the men having to play in the "perceived" afternoon spots.
the basketball committees need to talk to the soccer committees. there are significant advantages to having both championships at the same sites on the same weekend. it is awesome.
I did read what you said earlier about soccer but I am not sure basketball is the same.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 13, 2012, 08:24:06 PM
Roanoke is a media market and they do alright by the Final Four in terms of TV and newspaper coverage, considering what else is going on in sports and basketball at the same time.
Thanks. That makes a difference. I'm just hoping to get to a final four one of these years - hopefully it stays close enough to drive.
I live in Wisconsin. When Stevens Point went to the Final Four three times, I considered Salem driving distance. LOL ;D
The 1st one, I picked up diehardfan on the way there. I then left after Saturday's championship game, which was at 6 pm (I think) at the time, and drove back that night (left around 9:30 with Swampgoon, diehardfan stuck around) so I could get back on time for...SOCCER on Sunday (indoor league). The 2nd one I rode with friends, so that was easy and the 3rd one, I convinced my pregnant wife to sit in a car for 15 hours.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 13, 2012, 09:03:01 PM
I live in Wisconsin. When Stevens Point went to the Final Four three times, I considered Salem driving distance. LOL ;D
The 1st one, I picked up diehardfan on the way there. I then left after Saturday's championship game, which was at 6 pm (I think) at the time, and drove back that night (left around 9:30 with Swampgoon, diehardfan stuck around) so I could get back on time for...SOCCER on Sunday (indoor league). The 2nd one I rode with friends, so that was easy and the 3rd one, I convinced my pregnant wife to sit in a car for 15 hours.
[/b]
I'm going to have to hit you with a flagrant intentional foul on that one. :o
Quote from: ronk on March 13, 2012, 10:18:15 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 13, 2012, 09:03:01 PM
I live in Wisconsin. When Stevens Point went to the Final Four three times, I considered Salem driving distance. LOL ;D
The 1st one, I picked up diehardfan on the way there. I then left after Saturday's championship game, which was at 6 pm (I think) at the time, and drove back that night (left around 9:30 with Swampgoon, diehardfan stuck around) so I could get back on time for...SOCCER on Sunday (indoor league). The 2nd one I rode with friends, so that was easy and the 3rd one, I convinced my pregnant wife to sit in a car for 15 hours.
[/b]
I'm going to have to hit you with a flagrant intentional foul on that one. :o
His wife is obviously a saint, and probably deserves better than Tom! ;D
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 13, 2012, 08:07:35 PM
Quote from: Just Bill on March 13, 2012, 05:06:03 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 13, 2012, 05:02:38 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on March 13, 2012, 04:55:04 PM
Crazy idea:
Women's Semifinals in Holland, MI on Friday
Men's Semifinals in Grand Rapids, MI on Friday
All Star Game + Women's Final + Men's Final in Grand Rapids, MI on Saturday.
'Traveling' for the Women between the two venues wouldn't be ideal, but it would be a way to allow one big championship event without really screwing anyone over.
If you were going to double up on venues, something I thought about, there's probably better locales to do it - larger cities with a number of big enough facilities. D1 doesn't use gyms as small as d3 needs for their opening round, the only potential conflicts might be HS championships.
Philadelphia, for example, has the Palestra and also Temple's gym, which each seat about 8,000. That's probably a little bigger than Salem, but have to be other cities with similar sets ups (Chicago, maybe).
We've learned over time that D-III championships in large metro areas suffer from being overshadowed and ignored (see Danbury, CT). Medium size cities work much better (see Salem, Holland, Bloomington, Terre Haute)
Colorado Springs has 10,000 seat World Arena and the Air Force Academy gym seats about 6,000-8,000. Geographically that's a mess, but there could be others.
You could do it in Grand Rapids also -- skipping Holland -- Calvin's Van Noord arena seats ~5000 and Van Andel Arena downtown is ~10,000. And I don't know how you could say that Grand Rapids isn't a "big enough city".
1997 aside, I think Van Andel is too big for this event. But 5,000 would probably be good for a MBB/WBB title doubleheader.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 13, 2012, 05:02:38 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on March 13, 2012, 04:55:04 PM
Crazy idea:
Women's Semifinals in Holland, MI on Friday
Men's Semifinals in Grand Rapids, MI on Friday
All Star Game + Women's Final + Men's Final in Grand Rapids, MI on Saturday.
'Traveling' for the Women between the two venues wouldn't be ideal, but it would be a way to allow one big championship event without really screwing anyone over.
If you were going to double up on venues, something I thought about, there's probably better locales to do it - larger cities with a number of big enough facilities. D1 doesn't use gyms as small as d3 needs for their opening round, the only potential conflicts might be HS championships.
Philadelphia, for example, has the Palestra and also Temple's gym, which each seat about 8,000. That's probably a little bigger than Salem, but have to be other cities with similar sets ups (Chicago, maybe).
Chicago would be a great site for the Final Four! Plenty to do around here. Easier access in and out as far as flying as well.
Quote from: Knightstalker on March 13, 2012, 04:56:55 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on March 13, 2012, 04:55:04 PM
Crazy idea:
Women's Semifinals in Holland, MI on Friday
Men's Semifinals in Grand Rapids, MI on Friday
All Star Game + Women's Final + Men's Final in Grand Rapids, MI on Saturday.
I went to Grand Rapids once, it was closed. ;)
Hahahahahahahahahaha. I must've been there on the day they were open ;D
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 13, 2012, 09:03:01 PM
I live in Wisconsin. When Stevens Point went to the Final Four three :)The 1st one, I picked up diehardfan on the way there. I then left after Saturday's championship game, which was at 6 pm (I think) at the time, and drove back that night (left around 9:30 with Swampgoon, diehardfan stuck around) so I could get back on time for...SOCCER on Sunday (indoor league). The 2nd one I rode with friends, so that was easy and the 3rd one, I convinced my pregnant wife to sit in a car for 15 hours.
.....and how much did you have to do for her when you got back? :)
Quote from: newcardfan on March 14, 2012, 09:48:25 AM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 13, 2012, 09:03:01 PM
I live in Wisconsin. When Stevens Point went to the Final Four three :)The 1st one, I picked up diehardfan on the way there. I then left after Saturday's championship game, which was at 6 pm (I think) at the time, and drove back that night (left around 9:30 with Swampgoon, diehardfan stuck around) so I could get back on time for...SOCCER on Sunday (indoor league). The 2nd one I rode with friends, so that was easy and the 3rd one, I convinced my pregnant wife to sit in a car for 15 hours.
.....and how much did you have to do for her when you got back? :)
He is probably still paying for that one.
Quote from: Knightstalker on March 14, 2012, 09:58:55 AM
Quote from: newcardfan on March 14, 2012, 09:48:25 AM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 13, 2012, 09:03:01 PM
I live in Wisconsin. When Stevens Point went to the Final Four three :)The 1st one, I picked up diehardfan on the way there. I then left after Saturday's championship game, which was at 6 pm (I think) at the time, and drove back that night (left around 9:30 with Swampgoon, diehardfan stuck around) so I could get back on time for...SOCCER on Sunday (indoor league). The 2nd one I rode with friends, so that was easy and the 3rd one, I convinced my pregnant wife to sit in a car for 15 hours.
.....and how much did you have to do for her when you got back? :)
He is probably still paying for that one.
Yep...Big Time :D
Quote from: newcardfan on March 14, 2012, 09:42:08 AM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 13, 2012, 05:02:38 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on March 13, 2012, 04:55:04 PM
Crazy idea:
Women's Semifinals in Holland, MI on Friday
Men's Semifinals in Grand Rapids, MI on Friday
All Star Game + Women's Final + Men's Final in Grand Rapids, MI on Saturday.
'Traveling' for the Women between the two venues wouldn't be ideal, but it would be a way to allow one big championship event without really screwing anyone over.
If you were going to double up on venues, something I thought about, there's probably better locales to do it - larger cities with a number of big enough facilities. D1 doesn't use gyms as small as d3 needs for their opening round, the only potential conflicts might be HS championships.
Philadelphia, for example, has the Palestra and also Temple's gym, which each seat about 8,000. That's probably a little bigger than Salem, but have to be other cities with similar sets ups (Chicago, maybe).
Chicago would be a great site for the Final Four! Plenty to do around here. Easier access in and out as far as flying as well.
But it would be ignored by the local media, and that's not what D-III wants to do with one of its biggest championships.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 14, 2012, 10:13:08 AM
Quote from: newcardfan on March 14, 2012, 09:42:08 AM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 13, 2012, 05:02:38 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on March 13, 2012, 04:55:04 PM
Crazy idea:
Women's Semifinals in Holland, MI on Friday
Men's Semifinals in Grand Rapids, MI on Friday
All Star Game + Women's Final + Men's Final in Grand Rapids, MI on Saturday.
'Traveling' for the Women between the two venues wouldn't be ideal, but it would be a way to allow one big championship event without really screwing anyone over.
If you were going to double up on venues, something I thought about, there's probably better locales to do it - larger cities with a number of big enough facilities. D1 doesn't use gyms as small as d3 needs for their opening round, the only potential conflicts might be HS championships.
Philadelphia, for example, has the Palestra and also Temple's gym, which each seat about 8,000. That's probably a little bigger than Salem, but have to be other cities with similar sets ups (Chicago, maybe).
Chicago would be a great site for the Final Four! Plenty to do around here. Easier access in and out as far as flying as well.
But it would be ignored by the local media, and that's not what D-III wants to do with one of its biggest championships.
I'm so sure about that one anymore.
Imagine having the Division III Women's Basketball Final Four in Chicago on a day where at least four of the following happens:
* Chicago Bulls play or make a trade with the NCA trade deadline approaching
* Blackhawks play
* Cubs or Sox play a spring training game
* Bears sign or lose a free agent
* Illinois, DePaul or smaller local D-1 teams play in the NCAA tournament
* Other Division I NCAA men's basketball tournament games
* NBA trades involving other teams
* NFL free agent signings
* Random national sports story of the day: coach fired, hired, death of someone famous, etc.
* High school sports involving children of readers who live in the area year-round
Where would an event involving non-scholarship women's basketball teams from Massachusetts, Oregon, Minneapolis and Bloomington, Illinois fall in terms of prioritization for coverage? If you were a newspaper editor trying to appeal to the broadest local audience possible, where would you send your limited resources? Any chance at all the women's tournament isn't the lowest priority, particularly if you switch the Illinois team with someone from Indiana or Texas?
You can do the same thing with most major metropolitans areas. Switch Chicago for Philadelphia and it's highly unlikely the local media here would want to spend much time covering the Division III women's final four at a time when the Eagles are making free agent news, the Flyers and Sixers are playing, the Phils have spring training and at least one Division I team is playing in the NCAA tournament (and several more in the NIT). Maybe the event scores a mention in the local news section, several pages off the front. And the TV sports departments which have a few minutes per news broadcast aren't sending anyone to that event.
As Pat said, that's not where the Division III membership wants their premier event to be relegated.
Quote from: gordonmann on March 14, 2012, 02:11:35 PM
Imagine having the Division III Women's Basketball Final Four in Chicago on a day where at least four of the following happens:
* Chicago Bulls play or make a trade with the NCA trade deadline approaching
* Blackhawks play
* Cubs or Sox play a spring training game
* Bears sign or lose a free agent
* Illinois, DePaul or smaller local D-1 teams play in the NCAA tournament
* Other Division I NCAA men's basketball tournament games
* NBA trades involving other teams
* NFL free agent signings
* Random national sports story of the day: coach fired, hired, death of someone famous, etc.
* High school sports involving children of readers who live in the area year-round
Where would an event involving non-scholarship women's basketball teams from Massachusetts, Oregon, Minneapolis and Bloomington, Illinois fall in terms of prioritization for coverage? If you were a newspaper editor trying to appeal to the broadest local audience possible, where would you send your limited resources? Any chance at all the women's tournament isn't the lowest priority, particularly if you switch the Illinois team with someone from Indiana or Texas?
You can do the same thing with most major metropolitans areas. Switch Chicago for Philadelphia and it's highly unlikely the local media here would want to spend much time covering the Division III women's final four at a time when the Eagles are making free agent news, the Flyers and Sixers are playing, the Phils have spring training and at least one Division I team is playing in the NCAA tournament (and several more in the NIT). Maybe the event scores a mention in the local news section, several pages off the front. And the TV sports departments which have a few minutes per news broadcast aren't sending anyone to that event.
As Pat said, that's not where the Division III membership wants their premier event to be relegated.
Maybe we should do Seattle. They don't seem to have much going on in the professional ranks.
Quote from: Hoops Fan on March 14, 2012, 02:24:53 PM
Quote from: gordonmann on March 14, 2012, 02:11:35 PM
Imagine having the Division III Women's Basketball Final Four in Chicago on a day where at least four of the following happens:
* Chicago Bulls play or make a trade with the NCA trade deadline approaching
* Blackhawks play
* Cubs or Sox play a spring training game
* Bears sign or lose a free agent
* Illinois, DePaul or smaller local D-1 teams play in the NCAA tournament
* Other Division I NCAA men's basketball tournament games
* NBA trades involving other teams
* NFL free agent signings
* Random national sports story of the day: coach fired, hired, death of someone famous, etc.
* High school sports involving children of readers who live in the area year-round
Where would an event involving non-scholarship women's basketball teams from Massachusetts, Oregon, Minneapolis and Bloomington, Illinois fall in terms of prioritization for coverage? If you were a newspaper editor trying to appeal to the broadest local audience possible, where would you send your limited resources? Any chance at all the women's tournament isn't the lowest priority, particularly if you switch the Illinois team with someone from Indiana or Texas?
You can do the same thing with most major metropolitans areas. Switch Chicago for Philadelphia and it's highly unlikely the local media here would want to spend much time covering the Division III women's final four at a time when the Eagles are making free agent news, the Flyers and Sixers are playing, the Phils have spring training and at least one Division I team is playing in the NCAA tournament (and several more in the NIT). Maybe the event scores a mention in the local news section, several pages off the front. And the TV sports departments which have a few minutes per news broadcast aren't sending anyone to that event.
As Pat said, that's not where the Division III membership wants their premier event to be relegated.
Maybe we should do Seattle. They don't seem to have much going on in the professional ranks.
Lincoln, Nebraska! Except for Huskers football season, we got nothin'!
What's the advantage of having a little better local media coverage? Is it about convincing more locals to come out to the game? If so, wouldn't having the championship game in a larger metro area where more people could fly to or attend make up for that? How many fans could Whitewater and IWU bring to Chicago versus Salem?
This is a great discussion. A few random thoughts (all hypothetical based on a city actually wanting to host both) ...
1) Of all the college "team" sports, soccer is likely the most similar between men's and women's. Identical rules and the notion that the physical differences between the genders doesn't change the nature of the game all that much (the speed, perhaps, but not the general nature) helps; if you enjoy men's soccer played at a high level, then chances are you will enjoy women's as well. Also the popularity of the USWNT probably has interest in men's v. women's soccer less unequal than in any other team sport in this county. Thus, it's no surprise the women's soccer teams and players don't feel "overshadowed" in their championship.
2) That said, weigh the idea of being "overshadowed" against the idea of being able to sell "combined" tickets. I would think, all other things being equal, attendance at the women's championship game would get an uptick if played in the same location as the men's. This happens in men's lacrosse by having the Division II and III championships played at the same site, and the day between, the Division I semifinals and championship. Last year's Division III men's lacrosse title game drew 18,000 fans; a number that would be hard-pressed to be replicated if they had their own championship site. I don't think those guys minded being "overshadowed" by the Division I games. Obviously, the example in question is different, because it's combining gender championships instead of division championships, so there is the subtext of not wanting to present women's sports as an afterthought, but clearly there could be some benefits from it as well from an attendance standpoint.
3) I agree with the notion of small/medium cities with their own local media being the ideal host sites. In cities like Chicago or Philadelphia there is just SO much competition for entertainment or sporting interest. Bringing an event like this to a small/medium city generates interest/awareness in that market of Division III and brings more local folks out to the games because there just aren't as many options there. Despite the kidding, Grand Rapids would seem to be a great suggestion - any others along those lines?
Quote from: AO on March 14, 2012, 02:31:27 PM
What's the advantage of having a little better local media coverage? Is it about convincing more locals to come out to the game? If so, wouldn't having the championship game in a larger metro area where more people could fly to or attend make up for that? How many fans could Whitewater and IWU bring to Chicago versus Salem?
I think it'd be great to have this event someplace that really "wants" it. There may be a venue in Chicago that says "sure, you can have your little party here," but IMHO, the best relationships are those that are mutually beneficial and the out-of-town people and dollars Division III title games can bring in will at least register on the radar of smaller cities. In Chicago, would it even make a dent?
Quote from: AO on March 14, 2012, 02:31:27 PM
What's the advantage of having a little better local media coverage? Is it about convincing more locals to come out to the game? If so, wouldn't having the championship game in a larger metro area where more people could fly to or attend make up for that? How many fans could Whitewater and IWU bring to Chicago versus Salem?
The advantage is created indirectly by the media coverage. It's in the total student-athlete experience. In small and medium cities, you are the "big show" and everyone in town knows it. Athletes walk into restuarants, show up at the hotel or visit the mall and people know why they are there and are excited to see them. Elementary schools adopt a team and create signs and banners for them. It gives D-III athletes a celebrity status feel that they almost never get in their careers. That just won't happen in a bigger city.
Your question is essentially is that feeling worth more than convenient flights? I don't know. Depends who you ask.
Quote from: AO on March 14, 2012, 02:31:27 PM
What's the advantage of having a little better local media coverage? Is it about convincing more locals to come out to the game? If so, wouldn't having the championship game in a larger metro area where more people could fly to or attend make up for that? How many fans could Whitewater and IWU bring to Chicago versus Salem?
I completely agree with you on this. The easier it is to get in and out of an area the better. Besides, there is just so much to do here, that you could make it a winter get-away week-end, and Chicago is all about getting more people to come here and spend $$$. If you want D3 major events to draw a bigger fan base, put them in a major market. At least try it (I know it will never happen-nice to dream though) and see what happens.
Quote from: Just Bill on March 14, 2012, 03:02:12 PM
Quote from: AO on March 14, 2012, 02:31:27 PM
What's the advantage of having a little better local media coverage? Is it about convincing more locals to come out to the game? If so, wouldn't having the championship game in a larger metro area where more people could fly to or attend make up for that? How many fans could Whitewater and IWU bring to Chicago versus Salem?
The advantage is created indirectly by the media coverage. It's in the total student-athlete experience. In small and medium cities, you are the "big show" and everyone in town knows it. Athletes walk into restuarants, show up at the hotel or visit the mall and people know why they are there and are excited to see them. Elementary schools adopt a team and create signs and banners for them. It gives D-III athletes a celebrity status feel that they almost never get in their careers. That just won't happen in a bigger city.
Your question is essentially is that feeling worth more than convenient flights? I don't know. Depends who you ask.
Just because you aren't the only show in town doesn't mean that you can't get elementary school kids excited or hotels appreciative of your stay. I've witnessed it myself with the D-1 FCS championship in the Dallas area. Same weekend as the Cotton Bowl but the Dallas suburb of Frisco rolled out the red carpet and the elementary kids despite having no previous idea of the existence of the North Dakota State football team, nonetheless greatly appreciated a visit.
Quote from: Just Bill on March 14, 2012, 03:02:12 PM
Quote from: AO on March 14, 2012, 02:31:27 PM
What's the advantage of having a little better local media coverage? Is it about convincing more locals to come out to the game? If so, wouldn't having the championship game in a larger metro area where more people could fly to or attend make up for that? How many fans could Whitewater and IWU bring to Chicago versus Salem?
The advantage is created indirectly by the media coverage. It's in the total student-athlete experience. In small and medium cities, you are the "big show" and everyone in town knows it. Athletes walk into restuarants, show up at the hotel or visit the mall and people know why they are there and are excited to see them. Elementary schools adopt a team and create signs and banners for them. It gives D-III athletes a celebrity status feel that they almost never get in their careers. That just won't happen in a bigger city.
Your question is essentially is that feeling worth more than convenient flights? I don't know. Depends who you ask.
Here are some possibilities ...
Bloomington/Normal, IL (Illinois Wesleyan owns this area)
Holland/Grand Rapids, MI (Hope and Calvin)
Newport News/Norfolk, VA (Christopher Newport and Va. Wesleyan)
Harrisburg, PA (Elizabethtown, Lebanon Valley, Messiah, Dickinson, Gettysburg, PSU-Harrisburg, York)
... and this is just the tip of the iceberg!
I do understand the skepticism that some may have about lessening the experience. many of the great soccer minds had the same concerns. now, after about eight years of same-site championships and the experiences they've had in Greensboro, Disney World, and San Antonio, I would say that 99 percent of the soccer community -- including players and fans -- absolutely love the concept.
I don't think the D-1 FCS championship will be germaine unless the D-3 hoops championship is played in someplace like Indianapolis that's really hoops crazy as Texas is football crazy. Put it in a pro sports town and it'll be dwarfed.
A double hosting of the men's/women's tournaments sounds like a pretty great weekend, and I really have no opinion about it. It could probably work, but I think the women enjoy having their own spotlight.
I think the last thing anyone who really loves D3 and understands its mission is for the Championships of this division to become slaves to attendance numbers and potential marketing revenue. D3 schools are D3 for a reason, and it should avoid the pitfalls that have corrupted the 'higher' divisions of intercollegiate athletics. I think all of us would like to see better attendance and better recognition but the truth is, the lack of those things is precisely why this division is so attractive for so many.
There's always a sense in the Championships at this level that this is an important thing but its not the most important thing. I like that, and I think it should stay that way.
Quote from: sac on March 14, 2012, 04:39:11 PM
I think the last thing anyone who really loves D3 and understands its mission is for the Championships of this division to become slaves to attendance numbers and potential marketing revenue. D3 schools are D3 for a reason, and it should avoid the pitfalls that have corrupted the 'higher' divisions of intercollegiate athletics. I think all of us would like to see better attendance and better recognition but the truth is, the lack of those things is precisely why this division is so attractive for so many.
There's always a sense in the Championships at this level that this is an important thing but its not the most important thing. I like that, and I think it should stay that way.
The lack of recognition is the reason D3 is attractive? How does this compute? How are they attracted when they don't know about it? Is this the elitist music lover way of thinking? I loved this band, but then they got big and now I don't like them anymore.
I guess I just hold the more optimistic view. D3 basketball is worthy of mention in the major markets and moving the final 4 to one of those markets and maybe combining it with the women's might help drive that point home.
We could have it in Cleveland, there's no professional sports teams here at all!
Wait...what? Really? For how long? WHAT? You've got to be kidding me.
[sigh]
Never mind.
I'd rather have the D-3 championship in a real basketball gym that can be full (or nearly full) than dwarfed in a large metro-plex arena where you have to shell out big money for rent. If you watched some of the smaller D-1 conference tournaments that were played on neutral courts, some of the games had ridiculously low attendance and it felt like people were watching scrimmages. Putting 3,000 to 4,000 people in some place like Banker's Life Fieldhouse or the United Center isn't a very attractive atmosphere.
Quote from: AO on March 14, 2012, 04:53:42 PM
Quote from: sac on March 14, 2012, 04:39:11 PM
I think the last thing anyone who really loves D3 and understands its mission is for the Championships of this division to become slaves to attendance numbers and potential marketing revenue. D3 schools are D3 for a reason, and it should avoid the pitfalls that have corrupted the 'higher' divisions of intercollegiate athletics. I think all of us would like to see better attendance and better recognition but the truth is, the lack of those things is precisely why this division is so attractive for so many.
There's always a sense in the Championships at this level that this is an important thing but its not the most important thing. I like that, and I think it should stay that way.
The lack of recognition is the reason D3 is attractive? How does this compute? How are they attracted when they don't know about it? Is this the elitist music lover way of thinking? I loved this band, but then they got big and now I don't like them anymore.
I guess I just hold the more optimistic view. D3 basketball is worthy of mention in the major markets and moving the final 4 to one of those markets and maybe combining it with the women's might help drive that point home.
I think what is attractive is the fact Division III will only compromise their values so much to get more attention. For TV coverage of the championship games a few years ago, CBS Sports gave them something like noon on Saturday for a time slot. D3 dealt with it and slid the semifinals up a couple of hours to give the players a little more rest and allow the game to be nationally televised. But if ESPN came along and said we will show the Final Four and Final on TV but you have to play Wednesday afternoon and Thursday at 11pm, D3 may say no because that is taking the student-athletes out of school for a week.
Quote from: sac on March 14, 2012, 04:39:11 PM
A double hosting of the men's/women's tournaments sounds like a pretty great weekend, and I really have no opinion about it. It could probably work, but I think the women enjoy having their own spotlight.
This has been concerning me in this whole discussion. I'm not sure what any women coaches or women players think of it, but at most women/men doubleheaders, the men are the headliners. It's nice for women to have an event of their own.
Quote from: KnightSlappy on March 13, 2012, 04:55:04 PM
Crazy idea:
Women's Semifinals in Holland, MI on Friday
Men's Semifinals in Grand Rapids, MI on Friday
All Star Game + Women's Final + Men's Final in Grand Rapids, MI on Saturday.
'Traveling' for the Women between the two venues wouldn't be ideal, but it would be a way to allow one big championship event without really screwing anyone over.
I wonder what the point would be, though... if you want to have the events in the same place, this splits them up for fully half of the event. If there's a school that has two teams in the final four, they'd still have to choose for that first game.
Interestingly, UWSP men played at Hope and women at Calvin in the first pods this year... close to what you're talking about here!
Quote from: smedindy on March 14, 2012, 06:48:25 PM
I'd rather have the D-3 championship in a real basketball gym that can be full (or nearly full) than dwarfed in a large metro-plex arena where you have to shell out big money for rent. If you watched some of the smaller D-1 conference tournaments that were played on neutral courts, some of the games had ridiculously low attendance and it felt like people were watching scrimmages. Putting 3,000 to 4,000 people in some place like Banker's Life Fieldhouse or the United Center isn't a very attractive atmosphere.
Why would it have to be at the UC or Banker's Life though?
Chicago has quite a few gyms of various sized... but perhaps the perfect one would be the Gentile Center at Loyola. Seats 5200. If you want to go bigger, the UIC Pavilion. Seats 6958. Bigger still is Welsh-Ryan at Northwestern. Seats 8117.
All of these are "basketball gyms" and they're also on the campuses of NCAA schools. Would the NCAA have to shell out money to rent facilities of its constituent schools? (I don't know... probably... but they might be able to get a deal compared to an arena on the open market).
I'm not necessarily supporting the entire idea... but you wouldn't have to be in the highest-profile gym in a metro area.
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 13, 2012, 09:03:01 PM
I live in Wisconsin. When Stevens Point went to the Final Four three times, I considered Salem driving distance. LOL ;D
The 1st one, I picked up diehardfan on the way there. I then left after Saturday's championship game, which was at 6 pm (I think) at the time, and drove back that night (left around 9:30 with Swampgoon, diehardfan stuck around) so I could get back on time for...SOCCER on Sunday (indoor league). The 2nd one I rode with friends, so that was easy and the 3rd one, I convinced my pregnant wife to sit in a car for 15 hours.
Haha, I remember that. I think I slept basically the whole time like a punk. I am sure I made up for it by bringing cookies though. :D
Oh, and yeah, that was really mean of you to just leave me there in Salem.
Actually, seriously I have no recollection on how I got back to Wheaton... ???
Also PS. to any girls out there on D3hoops.com. Don't do this at home (ie. take random rides from guys that you've never met). Obviously Tom is not a psycho, but I seriously did a lot of crazy things for the love of basketball back in the day and I think it's probably I miracle that I didn't end up in more trouble than I did. That championship game is still one of the best games of basketball that I've ever seen though, so the risk kinda paid off. But still, don't try that at home anyway, haha. :-X
On a more related topic, I think this is a terrible idea. Though I would probably be way more likely to see a women's final four game this way, I don't think they'd be wrong to feel like their championship felt like a JV game, and that's just not really fair.
Also, most d3 venues are waaaay too small. Also there would be no Mac&Bobs, just saying :)
Quote from: diehardfan on March 15, 2012, 01:57:16 AM
Actually, seriously I have no recollection on how I got back to Wheaton... ???
I think you had family in the DC area and you flew back. :o
Quote from: diehardfan on March 15, 2012, 01:57:16 AM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on March 13, 2012, 09:03:01 PM
I live in Wisconsin. When Stevens Point went to the Final Four three times, I considered Salem driving distance. LOL ;D
The 1st one, I picked up diehardfan on the way there. I then left after Saturday's championship game, which was at 6 pm (I think) at the time, and drove back that night (left around 9:30 with Swampgoon, diehardfan stuck around) so I could get back on time for...SOCCER on Sunday (indoor league). The 2nd one I rode with friends, so that was easy and the 3rd one, I convinced my pregnant wife to sit in a car for 15 hours.
Haha, I remember that. I think I slept basically the whole time like a punk. I am sure I made up for it by bringing cookies though. :D
Oh, and yeah, that was really mean of you to just leave me there in Salem.
Actually, seriously I have no recollection on how I got back to Wheaton... ???
Also PS. to any girls out there on D3hoops.com. Don't do this at home (ie. take random rides from guys that you've never met). Obviously Tom is not a psycho, but I seriously did a lot of crazy things for the love of basketball back in the day and I think it's probably I miracle that I didn't end up in more trouble than I did. That championship game is still one of the best games of basketball that I've ever seen though, so the risk kinda paid off. But still, don't try that at home anyway, haha. :-X
This would make a great public service announcement!! :D
Quote from: PointSpecial on March 14, 2012, 11:32:09 PM
Quote from: smedindy on March 14, 2012, 06:48:25 PM
I'd rather have the D-3 championship in a real basketball gym that can be full (or nearly full) than dwarfed in a large metro-plex arena where you have to shell out big money for rent. If you watched some of the smaller D-1 conference tournaments that were played on neutral courts, some of the games had ridiculously low attendance and it felt like people were watching scrimmages. Putting 3,000 to 4,000 people in some place like Banker's Life Fieldhouse or the United Center isn't a very attractive atmosphere.
Why would it have to be at the UC or Banker's Life though?
Chicago has quite a few gyms of various sized... but perhaps the perfect one would be the Gentile Center at Loyola. Seats 5200. If you want to go bigger, the UIC Pavilion. Seats 6958. Bigger still is Welsh-Ryan at Northwestern. Seats 8117.
All of these are "basketball gyms" and they're also on the campuses of NCAA schools. Would the NCAA have to shell out money to rent facilities of its constituent schools? (I don't know... probably... but they might be able to get a deal compared to an arena on the open market).
I'm not necessarily supporting the entire idea... but you wouldn't have to be in the highest-profile gym in a metro area.
I was just taking it out to the extreme if you're going to 'put on a show'.
I think Hinkle Fieldhouse would be an ideal place for a D-3 finals, though.
Quote from: smedindy on March 15, 2012, 11:57:33 AM
I think Hinkle Fieldhouse would be an ideal place for a D-3 finals, though.
Totally agree with this. If anyone hasn't been there, it's the gym in the last scene of
Hoosiers. Greatest gym in the world.
Quote from: diehardfan on March 15, 2012, 01:57:16 AM
On a more related topic, I think this is a terrible idea. Though I would probably be way more likely to see a women's final four game this way, I don't think they'd be wrong to feel like their championship felt like a JV game, and that's just not really fair.
Yes, this is what I was saying before. It's rare that the women are the Main Event, and think their Final Four should stay that way.
Quote from: diehardfan on March 15, 2012, 01:57:16 AM
Actually, seriously I have no recollection on how I got back to Wheaton
Come to think of it, I think this is more scary than riding in the car with some Asian gangster you've never met! :-\
Quote from: Hoosier Titan on March 15, 2012, 12:17:23 PM
Quote from: smedindy on March 15, 2012, 11:57:33 AM
I think Hinkle Fieldhouse would be an ideal place for a D-3 finals, though.
Totally agree with this. If anyone hasn't been there, it's the gym in the last scene of Hoosiers. Greatest gym in the world.
Quote from: diehardfan on March 15, 2012, 01:57:16 AM
On a more related topic, I think this is a terrible idea. Though I would probably be way more likely to see a women's final four game this way, I don't think they'd be wrong to feel like their championship felt like a JV game, and that's just not really fair.
Yes, this is what I was saying before. It's rare that the women are the Main Event, and think their Final Four should stay that way.
How many fans would come to a final at Hinkle between some combination of Wooster, Wabash, Hope, Calvin, Steven's Point or Ill Wes?
From the women's perspective I don't think there's much wrong with not being the main event. One of my fondest basketball memories comes from a B-squad (10th grade) game where the demand for the varsity game was so great that the stands filled up during the 2nd half of my game. The game started with 100 people in the crowd and ended with 3000 of the loudest fans I would ever experience. 1 minute I'm playing in a meaningless game, the next the crowd gets on their feet and sends chills down my spine with the D-Fense chant. I've got to think a lot of women would pick a full house over a separate house.
Quote from: Hoosier Titan on March 15, 2012, 12:17:23 PM
Quote from: smedindy on March 15, 2012, 11:57:33 AM
I think Hinkle Fieldhouse would be an ideal place for a D-3 finals, though.
Totally agree with this. If anyone hasn't been there, it's the gym in the last scene of Hoosiers. Greatest gym in the world.
Quote from: diehardfan on March 15, 2012, 01:57:16 AM
On a more related topic, I think this is a terrible idea. Though I would probably be way more likely to see a women's final four game this way, I don't think they'd be wrong to feel like their championship felt like a JV game, and that's just not really fair.
Yes, this is what I was saying before. It's rare that the women are the Main Event, and think their Final Four should stay that way.
I wouldn't worry too much about any changes-at least any time soon. I just thought from a basketball junkie's(and former player) perspective, it would be great to have a huge Final Four week-end.
Quote from: Hoosier Titan on March 14, 2012, 10:36:41 PM
Quote from: sac on March 14, 2012, 04:39:11 PM
A double hosting of the men's/women's tournaments sounds like a pretty great weekend, and I really have no opinion about it. It could probably work, but I think the women enjoy having their own spotlight.
This has been concerning me in this whole discussion. I'm not sure what any women coaches or women players think of it, but at most women/men doubleheaders, the men are the headliners. It's nice for women to have an event of their own.
in soccer, every other year the women and men switch between afternoon and evening -- no favoritism shown. and the crowds are great for both genders. hey, if your team gets to the final four, the fans for both genders will travel to the site. having the other gender at the same site is just a bonus for both the women and men.
diehardfan wrote: On a more related topic, I think this is a terrible idea. Though I would probably be way more likely to see a women's final four game this way, I don't think they'd be wrong to feel like their championship felt like a JV game, and that's just not really fair.
april, you really should talk to the players and head coach at your alma mater. I bet that coach felske would strongly disagree with you, and your women would also disagree. or talk to coach guliano (sorry, it's probably misspelled), the men's coach, or any of your guys. i bet that also preferred -- and actually very much enjoyed -- playing on the same pitch as the women did/do. maybe you would change your opinion if you actually talked to one of them.
Quote from: cciwrabblerouser on March 15, 2012, 04:03:55 PM
Quote from: Hoosier Titan on March 14, 2012, 10:36:41 PM
Quote from: sac on March 14, 2012, 04:39:11 PM
A double hosting of the men's/women's tournaments sounds like a pretty great weekend, and I really have no opinion about it. It could probably work, but I think the women enjoy having their own spotlight.
This has been concerning me in this whole discussion. I'm not sure what any women coaches or women players think of it, but at most women/men doubleheaders, the men are the headliners. It's nice for women to have an event of their own.
in soccer, every other year the women and men switch between afternoon and evening -- no favoritism shown. and the crowds are great for both genders. hey, if your team gets to the final four, the fans for both genders will travel to the site. having the other gender at the same site is just a bonus for both the women and men.
I agree with you and would like to see it happen. Like anything new, it might take a year or two to pick up steam,but I think it would work.
You all could be right.
As a next step, how about someone proposing it as a topic for discussion on the women's Multi-Region boards?
Quote from: cciwrabblerouser on March 15, 2012, 04:12:45 PM
april, you really should talk to the players and head coach at your alma mater. I bet that coach felske would strongly disagree with you, and your women would also disagree. or talk to coach guliano (sorry, it's probably misspelled), the men's coach, or any of your guys. i bet that also preferred -- and actually very much enjoyed -- playing on the same pitch as the women did/do. maybe you would change your opinion if you actually talked to one of them.
Might make more sense to ask someone who's actually made a women's championship game. I wonder how Shirley Egner feels? Or any of the players on that team?
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 15, 2012, 10:11:20 PM
Quote from: cciwrabblerouser on March 15, 2012, 04:12:45 PM
april, you really should talk to the players and head coach at your alma mater. I bet that coach felske would strongly disagree with you, and your women would also disagree. or talk to coach guliano (sorry, it's probably misspelled), the men's coach, or any of your guys. i bet that also preferred -- and actually very much enjoyed -- playing on the same pitch as the women did/do. maybe you would change your opinion if you actually talked to one of them.
Might make more sense to ask someone who's actually made a women's championship game. I wonder how Shirley Egner feels? Or any of the players on that team?
pat, sure it would be great to talk with coach egner -- and other highly successful head women's coaches. but, if they want to get the opinion of any basketball coach -- men's or women's -- they will have their preconceived opinion, and they most likely will think that it might not help either sport. at least, that is what many of women's and men's soccer coaches felt before actually experiencing the combined final four in their sport. but now the ones who have experienced a combined site will tell you, i believe, that there are many more advantages than there are disadvantages.
change is difficult, and most people tend to see reasons why a change from the status quo might not work. that's human nature, and many people, unfortunately, just want to keep a closed mind.
Quote from: cciwrabblerouser on March 15, 2012, 10:57:43 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 15, 2012, 10:11:20 PM
Quote from: cciwrabblerouser on March 15, 2012, 04:12:45 PM
april, you really should talk to the players and head coach at your alma mater. I bet that coach felske would strongly disagree with you, and your women would also disagree. or talk to coach guliano (sorry, it's probably misspelled), the men's coach, or any of your guys. i bet that also preferred -- and actually very much enjoyed -- playing on the same pitch as the women did/do. maybe you would change your opinion if you actually talked to one of them.
Might make more sense to ask someone who's actually made a women's championship game. I wonder how Shirley Egner feels? Or any of the players on that team?
pat, sure it would be great to talk with coach egner -- and other highly successful head women's coaches. but, if they want to get the opinion of any basketball coach -- men's or women's -- they will have their preconceived opinion, and they most likely will think that it might not help either sport. at least, that is what many of women's and men's soccer coaches felt before actually experiencing the combined final four in their sport. but now the ones who have experienced a combined site will tell you, i believe, that there are many more advantages than there are disadvantages.
change is difficult, and most people tend to see reasons why a change from the status quo might not work. that's human nature, and many people, unfortunately, just want to keep a closed mind.
Great post.
Quote from: cciwrabblerouser on March 15, 2012, 10:57:43 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 15, 2012, 10:11:20 PM
Quote from: cciwrabblerouser on March 15, 2012, 04:12:45 PM
april, you really should talk to the players and head coach at your alma mater. I bet that coach felske would strongly disagree with you, and your women would also disagree. or talk to coach guliano (sorry, it's probably misspelled), the men's coach, or any of your guys. i bet that also preferred -- and actually very much enjoyed -- playing on the same pitch as the women did/do. maybe you would change your opinion if you actually talked to one of them.
Might make more sense to ask someone who's actually made a women's championship game. I wonder how Shirley Egner feels? Or any of the players on that team?
pat, sure it would be great to talk with coach egner -- and other highly successful head women's coaches. but, if they want to get the opinion of any basketball coach -- men's or women's -- they will have their preconceived opinion, and they most likely will think that it might not help either sport. at least, that is what many of women's and men's soccer coaches felt before actually experiencing the combined final four in their sport. but now the ones who have experienced a combined site will tell you, i believe, that there are many more advantages than there are disadvantages.
change is difficult, and most people tend to see reasons why a change from the status quo might not work. that's human nature, and many people, unfortunately, just want to keep a closed mind.
This may be true in a sport which, unfortunately, gets little attention and little coverage but I'm not sure that you can automatically apply all of the soccer benefits to the most popular co-ed sport in the NCAA.
Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 15, 2012, 10:11:20 PM
Quote from: cciwrabblerouser on March 15, 2012, 04:12:45 PM
april, you really should talk to the players and head coach at your alma mater. I bet that coach felske would strongly disagree with you, and your women would also disagree. or talk to coach guliano (sorry, it's probably misspelled), the men's coach, or any of your guys. i bet that also preferred -- and actually very much enjoyed -- playing on the same pitch as the women did/do. maybe you would change your opinion if you actually talked to one of them.
Might make more sense to ask someone who's actually made a women's championship game. I wonder how Shirley Egner feels? Or any of the players on that team?
I can't speak to 03-04 when took 4th in Va Beach (I was kinda busy that weekend ;)) but FWIW, in 01-02, a vocal part of the contingent was men's basketball players.
I'm not advocating for the switch... Having been to a women's final four and two men's final fours, I think that the spotlight is correctly on the 4 teams, then the two teams, then the one team in each location... and it isn't spread across to the other gender.
And yet... I wonder if Shirley would be willing to share the spotlight a little bit if it meant having another 500 Pointer fans at their games.
The numbers are hard to really diagnose... because there are other factors in play... but here are the attendance figures for the UWSP women and UWSP men in final fours in the last decade:
01-02
UWSP (W) 80 Marymount 57 - 1303
UWSP (W) 67 St. Lawrence 65 - 1065
03-04
Bowdoin 65 UWSP (W) 59 - 1200
UWSP (M) 87 John Carroll 62 - 2120
Rochester (W) 64 UWSP (W) 63 - 450
UWSP (M) 84 Williams 82 - 2374
04-05
UWSP (M) 81 York 58 - 2660
UWSP (M) 73 Rochester (M) 49 - 2877
09-10
UWSP (M) 72 Randolph Macon 60 - 2841
UWSP (M) 78 Williams 73 - 2835
I'm not sure if there's a whole lot we can really draw from this... though there about 500 fewer people for the men's games in 03-04 than either other championship... were they in Va Beach? Not very likely... but I bet there was at least 100-200 Point fans there.
I think what is obvious is that the women's championship will probably get more attendance... especially if the men's team is there too (so, like IWU this year, Point in 03-04, Wash U earlier this decade and Centre late in the 90's).
For that particular school, the profile and would likely be raised for the women's program... instead of having just the die-hard fans, they would have their die-hards and then be the recipient of the crowd from the men, too.
But I wonder about the other schools. Their profile would be diminished because instead of 1/4, they're 1/8 (and it would likely turn into the IWU show, or the UWSP show, or the Wash U show with both the men's and women's teams were at the same final four).
Like I said, no real conclusions... but just more food for thought.
Quote from: cciwrabblerouser on March 15, 2012, 04:12:45 PM
diehardfan wrote: On a more related topic, I think this is a terrible idea. Though I would probably be way more likely to see a women's final four game this way, I don't think they'd be wrong to feel like their championship felt like a JV game, and that's just not really fair.
april, you really should talk to the players and head coach at your alma mater. I bet that coach felske would strongly disagree with you, and your women would also disagree. or talk to coach guliano (sorry, it's probably misspelled), the men's coach, or any of your guys. i bet that also preferred -- and actually very much enjoyed -- playing on the same pitch as the women did/do. maybe you would change your opinion if you actually talked to one of them.
I am not an official rep of the Wheaton basketball program. Even if you are right, I don't really care, because I am entitled to my own opinion. I don't think soccer is a fair comparison, because no one likes soccer. :D (Now I am really not promoting the school line, haha.)
I can understand that the players, if they both happen to make the championship games, wanting to support each other, since they tend to be good friends. But in terms of promoting equality for women's sports, nah. And besides, chances are their schedules would be so tight that they may or may not even be able to see the game in it's entirety anyway.
Quote from: Hoosier Titan on March 15, 2012, 07:06:17 PM
You all could be right.
As a next step, how about someone proposing it as a topic for discussion on the women's Multi-Region boards?
Man I wish I knew what "tone" you typed this in...