Same Site for Championship Weekend: Let's Do It!

[AO]

I think Hinkle Fieldhouse would be an ideal place for a D-3 finals, though.

Totally agree with this.  If anyone hasn't been there, it's the gym in the last scene of Hoosiers. Greatest gym in the world.

On a more related topic, I think this is a terrible idea. Though I would probably be way more likely to see a women's final four game this way, I don't think they'd be wrong to feel like their championship felt like a JV game, and that's just not really fair.

Yes, this is what I was saying before.  It's rare that the women are the Main Event, and think their Final Four should stay that way.

How many fans would come to a final at Hinkle between some combination of Wooster, Wabash, Hope, Calvin, Steven's Point or Ill Wes?

From the women's perspective I don't think there's much wrong with not being the main event.  One of my fondest basketball memories comes from a B-squad (10th grade) game where the demand for the varsity game was so great that the stands filled up during the 2nd half of my game.  The game started with 100 people in the crowd and ended with 3000 of the loudest fans I would ever experience.   1 minute I'm playing in a meaningless game, the next the crowd gets on their feet and sends chills down my spine with the D-Fense chant.   I've got to think a lot of women would pick a full house over a separate house.

[NCF]

I think Hinkle Fieldhouse would be an ideal place for a D-3 finals, though.

Totally agree with this.  If anyone hasn't been there, it's the gym in the last scene of Hoosiers. Greatest gym in the world.

On a more related topic, I think this is a terrible idea. Though I would probably be way more likely to see a women's final four game this way, I don't think they'd be wrong to feel like their championship felt like a JV game, and that's just not really fair.

Yes, this is what I was saying before.  It's rare that the women are the Main Event, and think their Final Four should stay that way.

I wouldn't worry too much about any changes-at least any time soon. I just thought from a basketball junkie's(and former player) perspective, it would be great to have a huge Final Four week-end.

[cciwrabblerouser]

A double hosting of the men's/women's tournaments sounds like a pretty great weekend, and I really have no opinion about it.   It could probably work, but I think the women enjoy having their own spotlight.

This has been concerning me in this whole discussion.  I'm not sure what any women coaches or women players think of it, but at most women/men doubleheaders, the men are the headliners.  It's nice for women to have an event of their own.

in soccer, every other year the women and men switch between afternoon and evening -- no favoritism shown.  and the crowds are great for both genders.  hey, if your team gets to the final four, the fans for both genders will travel to the site.  having the other gender at the same site is just a bonus for both the women and men.

[cciwrabblerouser]

diehardfan wrote:  On a more related topic, I think this is a terrible idea. Though I would probably be way more likely to see a women's final four game this way, I don't think they'd be wrong to feel like their championship felt like a JV game, and that's just not really fair.

april, you really should talk to the players and head coach at your alma mater.  I bet that coach felske would strongly disagree with you, and your women would also disagree.  or talk to coach guliano (sorry, it's probably misspelled), the men's coach, or any of your guys.  i bet that also preferred -- and actually very much enjoyed -- playing on the same pitch as the women did/do.  maybe you would change your opinion if you actually talked to one of them.

[NCF]

A double hosting of the men's/women's tournaments sounds like a pretty great weekend, and I really have no opinion about it.   It could probably work, but I think the women enjoy having their own spotlight.

This has been concerning me in this whole discussion.  I'm not sure what any women coaches or women players think of it, but at most women/men doubleheaders, the men are the headliners.  It's nice for women to have an event of their own.

in soccer, every other year the women and men switch between afternoon and evening -- no favoritism shown.  and the crowds are great for both genders.  hey, if your team gets to the final four, the fans for both genders will travel to the site.  having the other gender at the same site is just a bonus for both the women and men.

I agree with you and would like to see it happen. Like anything new, it might take a year or two to pick up steam,but I think  it  would work.

[Hoosier Titan]

You all could be right.

As a next step, how about someone proposing it as a topic for discussion on the women's Multi-Region boards? 

[Pat Coleman]

april, you really should talk to the players and head coach at your alma mater.  I bet that coach felske would strongly disagree with you, and your women would also disagree.  or talk to coach guliano (sorry, it's probably misspelled), the men's coach, or any of your guys.  i bet that also preferred -- and actually very much enjoyed -- playing on the same pitch as the women did/do.  maybe you would change your opinion if you actually talked to one of them.

Might make more sense to ask someone who's actually made a women's championship game. I wonder how Shirley Egner feels? Or any of the players on that team?

[cciwrabblerouser]

april, you really should talk to the players and head coach at your alma mater.  I bet that coach felske would strongly disagree with you, and your women would also disagree.  or talk to coach guliano (sorry, it's probably misspelled), the men's coach, or any of your guys.  i bet that also preferred -- and actually very much enjoyed -- playing on the same pitch as the women did/do.  maybe you would change your opinion if you actually talked to one of them.

Might make more sense to ask someone who's actually made a women's championship game. I wonder how Shirley Egner feels? Or any of the players on that team?

pat, sure it would be great to talk with coach egner -- and other highly successful head women's coaches.  but, if they want to get the opinion of any basketball coach -- men's or women's -- they will have their preconceived opinion, and they most likely will think that it might not help either sport.  at least, that is what many of women's and men's soccer coaches felt before actually experiencing the combined final four in their sport.  but now the ones who have experienced a combined site will tell you, i believe, that there are many more advantages than there are disadvantages.

change is difficult, and most people tend to see reasons why a change from the status quo might not work. that's human nature, and many people, unfortunately, just want to keep a closed mind.

[NCF]

april, you really should talk to the players and head coach at your alma mater.  I bet that coach felske would strongly disagree with you, and your women would also disagree.  or talk to coach guliano (sorry, it's probably misspelled), the men's coach, or any of your guys.  i bet that also preferred -- and actually very much enjoyed -- playing on the same pitch as the women did/do.  maybe you would change your opinion if you actually talked to one of them.

Might make more sense to ask someone who's actually made a women's championship game. I wonder how Shirley Egner feels? Or any of the players on that team?

pat, sure it would be great to talk with coach egner -- and other highly successful head women's coaches.  but, if they want to get the opinion of any basketball coach -- men's or women's -- they will have their preconceived opinion, and they most likely will think that it might not help either sport.  at least, that is what many of women's and men's soccer coaches felt before actually experiencing the combined final four in their sport.  but now the ones who have experienced a combined site will tell you, i believe, that there are many more advantages than there are disadvantages.

change is difficult, and most people tend to see reasons why a change from the status quo might not work. that's human nature, and many people, unfortunately, just want to keep a closed mind.

Great post.

[Pat Coleman]

april, you really should talk to the players and head coach at your alma mater.  I bet that coach felske would strongly disagree with you, and your women would also disagree.  or talk to coach guliano (sorry, it's probably misspelled), the men's coach, or any of your guys.  i bet that also preferred -- and actually very much enjoyed -- playing on the same pitch as the women did/do.  maybe you would change your opinion if you actually talked to one of them.

Might make more sense to ask someone who's actually made a women's championship game. I wonder how Shirley Egner feels? Or any of the players on that team?

pat, sure it would be great to talk with coach egner -- and other highly successful head women's coaches.  but, if they want to get the opinion of any basketball coach -- men's or women's -- they will have their preconceived opinion, and they most likely will think that it might not help either sport.  at least, that is what many of women's and men's soccer coaches felt before actually experiencing the combined final four in their sport.  but now the ones who have experienced a combined site will tell you, i believe, that there are many more advantages than there are disadvantages.

change is difficult, and most people tend to see reasons why a change from the status quo might not work. that's human nature, and many people, unfortunately, just want to keep a closed mind.

This may be true in a sport which, unfortunately, gets little attention and little coverage but I'm not sure that you can automatically apply all of the soccer benefits to the most popular co-ed sport in the NCAA.

[John Gleich]

april, you really should talk to the players and head coach at your alma mater.  I bet that coach felske would strongly disagree with you, and your women would also disagree.  or talk to coach guliano (sorry, it's probably misspelled), the men's coach, or any of your guys.  i bet that also preferred -- and actually very much enjoyed -- playing on the same pitch as the women did/do.  maybe you would change your opinion if you actually talked to one of them.

Might make more sense to ask someone who's actually made a women's championship game. I wonder how Shirley Egner feels? Or any of the players on that team?

I can't speak to 03-04 when took 4th in Va Beach (I was kinda busy that weekend  ) but FWIW, in 01-02, a vocal part of the contingent was men's basketball players.


I'm not advocating for the switch... Having been to a women's final four and two men's final fours, I think that the spotlight is correctly on the 4 teams, then the two teams, then the one team in each location... and it isn't spread across to the other gender.


And yet... I wonder if Shirley would be willing to share the spotlight a little bit if it meant having another 500 Pointer fans at their games.


The numbers are hard to really diagnose... because there are other factors in play... but here are the attendance figures for the UWSP women and UWSP men in final fours in the last decade:

01-02
UWSP (W) 80 Marymount 57 - 1303
UWSP (W) 67 St. Lawrence 65 - 1065

03-04
Bowdoin 65 UWSP (W) 59 - 1200
UWSP (M) 87 John Carroll 62 - 2120
Rochester (W) 64 UWSP (W) 63 - 450
UWSP (M) 84 Williams 82 - 2374

04-05
UWSP (M) 81 York 58 - 2660
UWSP (M) 73 Rochester (M) 49 - 2877

09-10
UWSP (M) 72 Randolph Macon 60 - 2841
UWSP (M) 78 Williams 73 - 2835


I'm not sure if there's a whole lot we can really draw from this... though there about 500 fewer people for the men's games in 03-04 than either other championship... were they in Va Beach?  Not very likely... but I bet there was at least 100-200 Point fans there.

I think what is obvious is that the women's championship will probably get more attendance... especially if the men's team is there too (so, like IWU this year, Point in 03-04, Wash U earlier this decade and Centre late in the 90's).

For that particular school, the profile and would likely be raised for the women's program... instead of having just the die-hard fans, they would have their die-hards and then be the recipient of the crowd from the men, too.

But I wonder about the other schools.  Their profile would be diminished because instead of 1/4, they're 1/8 (and it would likely turn into the IWU show, or the UWSP show, or the Wash U show with both the men's and women's teams were at the same final four).


Like I said, no real conclusions... but just more food for thought.

[diehardfan]

diehardfan wrote:  On a more related topic, I think this is a terrible idea. Though I would probably be way more likely to see a women's final four game this way, I don't think they'd be wrong to feel like their championship felt like a JV game, and that's just not really fair.

april, you really should talk to the players and head coach at your alma mater.  I bet that coach felske would strongly disagree with you, and your women would also disagree.  or talk to coach guliano (sorry, it's probably misspelled), the men's coach, or any of your guys.  i bet that also preferred -- and actually very much enjoyed -- playing on the same pitch as the women did/do.  maybe you would change your opinion if you actually talked to one of them.

I am not an official rep of the Wheaton basketball program. Even if you are right, I don't really care, because I am entitled to my own opinion. I don't think soccer is a fair comparison, because no one likes soccer.  (Now I am really not promoting the school line, haha.)

I can understand that the players, if they both happen to make the championship games, wanting to support each other, since they tend to be good friends. But in terms of promoting equality for women's sports, nah. And besides, chances are their schedules would be so tight that they may or may not even be able to see the game in it's entirety anyway.

You all could be right.

As a next step, how about someone proposing it as a topic for discussion on the women's Multi-Region boards? 

Man I wish I knew what "tone" you typed this in...