D3boards.com

Fun question - DON'T take this too seriously.

Using these polls as a "guide"
D1 - https://www.ncaa.com/rankings/soccer-men/d1/ncaa-mens-soccer-rpi
D3 - http://unitedsoccercoaches.org/web/Rankings/College_Rankings/NCAA_DIII_MEN/web/rankings/ncaa/diii_men.aspx

Where in the D1 rankings would you place a Messiah/Chicago/Tufts (a top team)?
Where is the D1 rankings would you place a Luther/Ithica/Claremont McKenna (a 25th ranked team)?

Where in the D3 rankings would you place VMI/Wofford/UNC-Asheville (bottom 10 team)?

I'm not diving too far into this because I don't think any of the DIII top teams would be in the Top 25 in D1. Maybe one or two could get some sniffs, but I don't think it is realistic.

I have seen VMI in person... and while their record (especially over a period of time) is shocking ... they weren't nearly as bad as I thought they would be. They were pretty competitive with a good goalie and solid players. They just aren't as deep and struggled to play as a unit for all 90 minutes. VMI would actually be very successful in DIII IF they kept the same squad in place (versus losing players with no interest playing in DIII). I am not sure where I would put VMI in the DIII Top 25, but I think they would be there for sure.

Yeah, I think that if even the best d3 squads had to play a full d1 schedule, none of them would stick in the top 25. Not even close.

Could Messiah beat VMI? Sure. That doesn't translate into them being elite at the d1 level.

I stated this poorly. Here's a better shot at it.

Where would the top D3 teams like Messiah/Chicago/Tufts be ranked within the D1 rankings?

Where would a top-25 D3 team like Luther/Ithica/Claremont McKenna be ranked within the D1 rankings?

Finally,

Where would a bottom D1 team like VMI/Wofford/UNC-Asheville be ranked within the D3 rankings?

My guess is that the very elite d3 teams would fall somewhere between the 40-60th percentile of D1 teams. I do believe that the top 1-2 players on those elite d3 teams (e.g., Trent Vegtor, Nick West, Max Lopez, Matthew Koh) would get playing time, if not a starting role, at any D1 school.

My guess is that a bottom of the barrel, top 25 D3 team would fall somewhere around the 5-10th percentile of D1 teams. Conversely, my guess is that a bottom level D1 team would be right around the level of a bottom of the barrel, top 25 D3 team.

Curious to hear other's thoughts.

The skillset difference between D1 and D3 isn't that great. However, the speed, strength and quickness difference is noticable. As such, I think the top D3 programs can win some games here and there, but would struggle over an entire season.

Quote from: NEsoccerfan on October 09, 2018, 04:58:33 PM
My guess is that the very elite d3 teams would fall somewhere between the 40-60th percentile of D1 teams. I do believe that the top 1-2 players on those elite d3 teams (e.g., Trent Vegtor, Nick West, Max Lopez, Matthew Koh) would get playing time, if not a starting role, at any D1 school.

My guess is that a bottom of the barrel, top 25 D3 team would fall somewhere around the 5-10th percentile of D1 teams. Conversely, my guess is that a bottom level D1 team would be right around the level of a bottom of the barrel, top 25 D3 team.

Curious to hear other's thoughts.

I always err on the side of arguing that true, top level D1-caliber players would play D1.  I love Koh, but if he could be a starting attacking mid or striker at Stanford, Duke, UCLA or UVA why wouldn't he?  If West could tear up the ACC why wouldn't he?  I think Vegter is a true rare exception, as perhaps a few Messiah players have been over the years as I assume their faith plays a big role in their choices.  Hard to think Vegter couldn't be a starting CB or left back for at least most legit D1s.

At the team level, My guess is that a program like Messiah would be, at best, a mid-level Patriot League outfit.  I know they sometimes win a scrimmage/Spring game versus Bucknell or Lehigh but I wonder how many times they would beat them in a real, full-out Fall season game that truly counted.

Quote from: EB2319 on October 09, 2018, 08:57:00 PM
The skillset difference between D1 and D3 isn't that great. However, the speed, strength and quickness difference is noticable. As such, I think the top D3 programs can win some games here and there, but would struggle over an entire season.

Another thing I have noticed, since I am calling a lot of D1 games now, that is also true in the sport of basketball ... there is a large height difference. I probably don't have to go into detail, but everyone seems to have significant height in D1 while D3 doesn't have that consistently across the roster.

Quote from: NEsoccerfan on October 09, 2018, 04:58:33 PM
My guess is that the very elite d3 teams would fall somewhere between the 40-60th percentile of D1 teams. I do believe that the top 1-2 players on those elite d3 teams (e.g., Trent Vegtor, Nick West, Max Lopez, Matthew Koh) would get playing time, if not a starting role, at any D1 school.

My guess is that a bottom of the barrel, top 25 D3 team would fall somewhere around the 5-10th percentile of D1 teams. Conversely, my guess is that a bottom level D1 team would be right around the level of a bottom of the barrel, top 25 D3 team.

Curious to hear other's thoughts.

Last season, Gustaf Ericsson started as a freshman for North Park. He was (and is) an outstanding talent -- he scored NPU's lone goal in the national championship match -- but he wasn't North Park's best freshman. Peder Olsen, who won the CCIW Newcomer of the Year award, was. Ericsson finished fifth among the Vikings in goals and fourth in points. He came on strong at the end of the year, and made it obvious that he was headed for greatness had he chosen to stay at North Park, but he was by no means even close to being NPU's best player in 2017.

This year Ericsson transferred to a D1 school, the University of San Diego. He started the first four matches of the season for the Toreros (versus Cal-Irvine, UCLA, Duke, and Cal Baptist), and since then has mostly come off of the bench, along with a couple more starts. The Toreros have a 4-6-2 record, so, while they aren't great, they're hardly the dregs of D1, either.

Draw whatever conclusions you like from that.

Quote from: PaulNewman on October 09, 2018, 09:11:05 PM

Quote from: NEsoccerfan on October 09, 2018, 04:58:33 PM
My guess is that the very elite d3 teams would fall somewhere between the 40-60th percentile of D1 teams. I do believe that the top 1-2 players on those elite d3 teams (e.g., Trent Vegtor, Nick West, Max Lopez, Matthew Koh) would get playing time, if not a starting role, at any D1 school.

My guess is that a bottom of the barrel, top 25 D3 team would fall somewhere around the 5-10th percentile of D1 teams. Conversely, my guess is that a bottom level D1 team would be right around the level of a bottom of the barrel, top 25 D3 team.

Curious to hear other's thoughts.

I always err on the side of arguing that true, top level D1-caliber players would play D1.  I love Koh, but if he could be a starting attacking mid or striker at Stanford, Duke, UCLA or UVA why wouldn't he?  If West could tear up the ACC why wouldn't he?  I think Vegter is a true rare exception, as perhaps a few Messiah players have been over the years as I assume their faith plays a big role in their choices.  Hard to think Vegter couldn't be a starting CB or left back for at least most legit D1s.

At the team level, My guess is that a program like Messiah would be, at best, a mid-level Patriot League outfit.  I know they sometimes win a scrimmage/Spring game versus Bucknell or Lehigh but I wonder how many times they would beat them in a real, full-out Fall season game that truly counted.

I can tell you that West was recruited by Syracuse and offered scholarship and still chose Messiah.  So not always the case that everyone would chose d1.

Quote from: PaulNewman on October 09, 2018, 09:11:05 PM

Quote from: NEsoccerfan on October 09, 2018, 04:58:33 PM
My guess is that the very elite d3 teams would fall somewhere between the 40-60th percentile of D1 teams. I do believe that the top 1-2 players on those elite d3 teams (e.g., Trent Vegtor, Nick West, Max Lopez, Matthew Koh) would get playing time, if not a starting role, at any D1 school.

My guess is that a bottom of the barrel, top 25 D3 team would fall somewhere around the 5-10th percentile of D1 teams. Conversely, my guess is that a bottom level D1 team would be right around the level of a bottom of the barrel, top 25 D3 team.

Curious to hear other's thoughts.

I always err on the side of arguing that true, top level D1-caliber players would play D1.  I love Koh, but if he could be a starting attacking mid or striker at Stanford, Duke, UCLA or UVA why wouldn't he?  If West could tear up the ACC why wouldn't he?  I think Vegter is a true rare exception, as perhaps a few Messiah players have been over the years as I assume their faith plays a big role in their choices.  Hard to think Vegter couldn't be a starting CB or left back for at least most legit D1s.

At the team level, My guess is that a program like Messiah would be, at best, a mid-level Patriot League outfit.  I know they sometimes win a scrimmage/Spring game versus Bucknell or Lehigh but I wonder how many times they would beat them in a real, full-out Fall season game that truly counted.

I think many of these kids mature (both physically and talent wise) into D1 talents over the course of their d3 careers. So while they might not have what it takes as freshman, they do as seniors or juniors. In those situations, it's quite a difficult decision to leave your comfort zone  (the school, teachers, classes, friends, teammates, competition level, etc. etc.) to risk transferring to a quality D1 program where there are no guarantees about any of the things I listed parenthetically above.

Taking koh as an example, unless he has aspirations  of playing professionally, what would the incentive be to leave behind everything at UC (on par with any Ivey league school) to go elsewhere for one year?

Quote from: NEsoccerfan on October 10, 2018, 10:42:58 AM

Quote from: PaulNewman on October 09, 2018, 09:11:05 PM

Quote from: NEsoccerfan on October 09, 2018, 04:58:33 PM
My guess is that the very elite d3 teams would fall somewhere between the 40-60th percentile of D1 teams. I do believe that the top 1-2 players on those elite d3 teams (e.g., Trent Vegtor, Nick West, Max Lopez, Matthew Koh) would get playing time, if not a starting role, at any D1 school.

My guess is that a bottom of the barrel, top 25 D3 team would fall somewhere around the 5-10th percentile of D1 teams. Conversely, my guess is that a bottom level D1 team would be right around the level of a bottom of the barrel, top 25 D3 team.

Curious to hear other's thoughts.

I always err on the side of arguing that true, top level D1-caliber players would play D1.  I love Koh, but if he could be a starting attacking mid or striker at Stanford, Duke, UCLA or UVA why wouldn't he?  If West could tear up the ACC why wouldn't he?  I think Vegter is a true rare exception, as perhaps a few Messiah players have been over the years as I assume their faith plays a big role in their choices.  Hard to think Vegter couldn't be a starting CB or left back for at least most legit D1s.

At the team level, My guess is that a program like Messiah would be, at best, a mid-level Patriot League outfit.  I know they sometimes win a scrimmage/Spring game versus Bucknell or Lehigh but I wonder how many times they would beat them in a real, full-out Fall season game that truly counted.

I think many of these kids mature (both physically and talent wise) into D1 talents over the course of their d3 careers. So while they might not have what it takes as freshman, they do as seniors or juniors. In those situations, it's quite a difficult decision to leave your comfort zone  (the school, teachers, classes, friends, teammates, competition level, etc. etc.) to risk transferring to a quality D1 program where there are no guarantees about any of the things listed parenthetically above.

Taking koh as an example, unless he has aspirations  of playing professionally, what would his incentive be to leave behind everything at UC (on par with any Ivey league school) to go elsewhere for one year?

Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 10, 2018, 01:01:53 AM

Quote from: NEsoccerfan on October 09, 2018, 04:58:33 PM
My guess is that the very elite d3 teams would fall somewhere between the 40-60th percentile of D1 teams. I do believe that the top 1-2 players on those elite d3 teams (e.g., Trent Vegtor, Nick West, Max Lopez, Matthew Koh) would get playing time, if not a starting role, at any D1 school.

My guess is that a bottom of the barrel, top 25 D3 team would fall somewhere around the 5-10th percentile of D1 teams. Conversely, my guess is that a bottom level D1 team would be right around the level of a bottom of the barrel, top 25 D3 team.

Curious to hear other's thoughts.

Last season, Gustaf Ericsson started as a freshman for North Park. He was (and is) an outstanding talent -- he scored NPU's lone goal in the national championship match -- but he wasn't North Park's best freshman. Peder Olsen, who won the CCIW Newcomer of the Year award, was. Ericsson finished fifth among the Vikings in goals and fourth in points. He came on strong at the end of the year, and made it obvious that he was headed for greatness had he chosen to stay at North Park, but he was by no means even close to being NPU's best player in 2017.

This year Ericsson transferred to a D1 school, the University of San Diego. He started the first four matches of the season for the Toreros (versus Cal-Irvine, UCLA, Duke, and Cal Baptist), and since then has mostly come off of the bench, along with a couple more starts. The Toreros have a 4-6-2 record, so, while they aren't great, they're hardly the dregs of D1, either.

Draw whatever conclusions you like from that.

Maybe I need to check the transfer rules (AGAIN)... but why isn't Ericsson sitting this year?

Somebody somewhere on d3boards.com claimed that the NCAA only requires a student-athlete to redshirt when transferring from D3 to D2 or D1, or from D2 to D1, if he plays football or men's basketball. I haven't combed through the NCAA rulebook to see if that's true, but it sounds plausible.

Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 10, 2018, 11:29:54 AM
Somebody somewhere on d3boards.com claimed that the NCAA only requires a student-athlete to redshirt when transferring from D3 to D2 or D1, or from D2 to D1, if he plays football or men's basketball. I haven't combed through the NCAA rulebook to see if that's true, but it sounds plausible.

It's plausible, but I was under the impression it was all sports. I need to re-read the damn rulebook for the umpteenth time. SMH

Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 10, 2018, 11:29:54 AM
Somebody somewhere on d3boards.com claimed that the NCAA only requires a student-athlete to redshirt when transferring from D3 to D2 or D1, or from D2 to D1, if he plays football or men's basketball. I haven't combed through the NCAA rulebook to see if that's true, but it sounds plausible.

It's men's and women's basketball, football, baseball and ice hockey.

http://www.ncaa.org/student-athletes/current/transfer-terms

I meant if Koh was offered scholarship to play at Stanford or Duke on front end would he really go to Chicago?  I agree few would chance leaving once already somewhere, especially if already happy.

And Syracuse is not UNC, UVA, Maryland or Wake.

Not arguing that really good D3 players couldn't play at mid-level D1s.

Quote from: PaulNewman on October 10, 2018, 12:19:23 PM
I meant if Koh was offered scholarship to play at Stanford or Duke on front end would he really go to Chicago?  I agree few would chance leaving once already somewhere, especially if already happy.

And Syracuse is not UNC, UVA, Maryland or Wake.

Not arguing that really good D3 players couldn't play at mid-level D1s.

We see this in a lot of sports in DIII... a lot of student-athletes will turn down offers to D1s and D2s for a number of reasons. Some of those SAs or others have told me over the years:
- Opportunity to play, win championships (conference and national), and be involved versus riding the bench primarily.
- More money in academic offers than in athletic scholarships (remember, outside of basketball and football ... D1 and D2 [all sports] split their scholarships up, so no one really gets a full ride) - there is also 22x more money in academic scholarships than in athletic scholarships in the entire NCAA.
- The major or career goals they are interested in are not offered by the D1 or D2 institutions - these SAs knowing that athletics is done after college.
- Other factors like close to home, friends or family at other college, familiarity, etc.

There are lots of other reasons like being passed over. Duncan Robinson who starred at Michigan the last three years in basketball... started out in Division III at Williams. Nearly helped the Ephs to a national title his freshman year (he hit the would-be game winner just seconds left in the game, before finding himself the last defender to stop the actual game winner in the other direction; he nearly hit a buzzer beater from 30' moments later). He had been missed by D1s in high school as he was a late bloomer. He would have stayed at Williams who he said he had committed to and wasn't going to leave, but his coach, who had also committed to, left for Marist, so it opened the door and Robinson took full advantage. He now has signed a deal with the Miami Heat.

Sometimes things happen and players are at DIII for a variety of reasons. A lot of them because they want to be here. If more students (and their families) stopped looking at the alor of scholarships as being the be-all and end-all of their careers, they would realize they have more opportunities, maybe more money, and certainly better situations in DIII than above.

Quote from: titanalum94 on October 10, 2018, 12:16:21 PM

Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 10, 2018, 11:29:54 AM
Somebody somewhere on d3boards.com claimed that the NCAA only requires a student-athlete to redshirt when transferring from D3 to D2 or D1, or from D2 to D1, if he plays football or men's basketball. I haven't combed through the NCAA rulebook to see if that's true, but it sounds plausible.

It's men's and women's basketball, football, baseball and ice hockey.

http://www.ncaa.org/student-athletes/current/transfer-terms

Thanks, titanalum94, for saving me the trouble of looking it up.  :)

Turning down a D1 scholarship at an athletically far superior (elite athletic D1) and academically comparable or superior school to go D3 is extremely rare.  Can we at least agree on that?

I do find the frequent soundbite of "coulda gone D1 but went D3" a little disingenuous.  OK, but you chose D3 and you played at the D3 level.  And turning down a mid major D1 seems different than turning down a perennial top 25 (athletic and academic) D1.

Should top level D1 student athletes choose D3 more often? Perhaps, but that's a different question.

Quote from: PaulNewman on October 10, 2018, 12:43:50 PM
Turning down a D1 scholarship at an athletically far superior (elite athletic D1) and academically comparable or superior school to go D3 is extremely rare.  Can we at least agree on that?

I do find the frequent soundbite of "coulda gone D1 but went D3" a little disingenuous.  OK, but you chose D3 and you played at the D3 level.  And turning down a mid major D1 seems different than turning down a perennial top 25 (athletic and academic) D1.

Should top level D1 student athletes choose D3 more often? Perhaps, but that's a different question.

First off... why do you have to find some way to argue with EVERYTHING people post. Dude. I was proving more to the point you had made. I wasn't arguing with you. I was providing more context. Ease off. Not everyone or every point is against you. No one said the idea you have isn't extremely rare... I simply said we know it happens that D1 offers are turned down for D3. I didn't say "athletically far superior (elite athletic D1)" in my example. I left it generic. However to that point, Robinson did seem to turn down some late, pretty good D1 offers, because he felt he had made a commitment to Williams.

Secondly, I never said I got the "coulda gone D1 but went D3" sound bite. In talking to SAs, coaches, administrators, or others, there is a refrain that athletes are sometimes proud to say ... yeah, I knew I had a chance to play, or I needed to focus on my academics, or I wasn't interested in what that school had to offer and so I came to DIII for a lot of good reasons.

And again ... where in my point did I talk about perennial Top 25? Where in your point did you talk about perennial Top 25 D1 programs? Why do you have to find something not mentioned to stir the pot or change the conversation. We were keeping it generic. That is the exact reason I also included D2. The point was, DIII student-athletes turn down offers from a lot of D1s and D2s for a lot of different reasons. Plain and simple.

As for top level D1's going to D3s instead... I could care less. That is their decision to make. I am not going to tell any of them what they "should" do or not. I feel DIII provides better opportunities on a much larger scale, but too many students and parents have their blinders on. If they don't get a D1 or D2 offer they either go JUCO to try and change minds ... or they go to a school and not even play athletics. I'm just saying, take the blinders off (and remove the misconceptions) and realize DIII isn't that bad.

Wow.  I actually was not looking to be difficult.  I couldn't tell from your initial response whether you are mostly agreeing or not.  And then in the second one I was actually looking for where the consensus is.  I LOVE D3.  My kid played D3.  Is any nuance allowed?  I agreed that there can be exceptions.  I don't think saying that very few kids would choose D3 over extremely athletically and academically strong D1s assuming they really are going to be impact players for top D1s.  I assume you agree that your Williams to Michigan example is rare.  Stephenson who played soccer at Williams was pretty rare too.  At any rate, you are assuming a lot from very limited data about what and who I am.  You could ease up a little, or am I supposed to quake or something because of who you are.  The five paragraph lectures are a bit much.

I get that we (and I include myself in this group) are generally defensive of D3 sports as an institution — hey, I think it's great if a kid who has D1-level talent decides to go D3 — and I am well aware of a number of cases where a player had interest from a D1 level but passed on it to go D3. In fact, I'm pretty sure I heard J. Ocel was being recruited strongly by BC, but chose Brandeis because his brother was already there and doing well athletically and academically, he would likely be one of the better players, and would be at a comparable institution in terms of academics (with an eye on dental school, I believe — in fact, his brother just graduated from dental school this year).

However, I do have to agree with Paul that I think it is quite rare that a kid being recruited by a top 25 D1 school will choose to go D3. Now, that's not saying it never happens — I personally have no doubt Nick West in particular could figure at a top D1 program — but I think he is a special case. For one, his brother had already had a great experience playing at Messiah for a program which is, at least historically, the gold standard for D3 soccer (and I would even extend that to modern day, given the Falcons' title last year and their 11 titles in total) for a number of years, and an article on his college selection outlined that the culture of the team (and the school) were big factors.

Now, if I myself was being recruited by both a top 25 D1 program that was average academically and a D3 like Chicago/Williams/WashU which is academically comparable to an Ivy, I personally would choose the D3 option. Of course, I say this fully recognizing that I never was in that position, and I also know that, to me, the desire to go to a school that is good academically is paramount to competing at a high athletic level. It is likely that some (perhaps most) student athletes in that position would not share this thought process.

Of course, a number of players have attracted interest from both D1 and D3 programs. All of them have to make the choice between the two (or 3, if we're including D2), however, and there are many reasons that those choices are made. That being said, I would say that it is rare for a top D1 prospect to choose D3. That doesn't mean it never happens, but it seems rare.

This is always an interesting discussion, and one that seems to resurface each year.  As I've mentioned before, my older son was recruited by and was fortunate enough to play for Brown when they were a perennial top 25 D1 program, including one season they ended the regular season ranked #2 in the country.  My younger son received some light D1 recruiting interest, but was primarily recruited by academically inclined D3 schools.  He ended up choosing Bowdoin and was fortunate to play in a D3 Final Four.

My general observations: 
D1 players are generally faster and more athletic than D3 players.  They are not necessarily larger, but they are faster and more athletic.  And, on balance, D1 players are technically slightly better than their D3 counterparts.  They have to be...they're playing the game at a faster speed (think of mid-level Premier League vs. mid-level Serie A).

I believe many D1 players choose D1 not just because they're being recruited, but also because they're somewhat myopically focused on soccer and want to go as far as possible in the sport (to the extent the brain of a teenaged male thinks beyond the current moment).  Many talented soccer players who end up choosing D3 do so not just because they're not being recruited, but also because they have some awareness that they want a more rounded college experience (academics, athletics, study abroad, social life, etc.).

Quote from: truenorth on October 10, 2018, 04:52:33 PM
This is always an interesting discussion, and one that seems to resurface each year.  As I've mentioned before, my older son was recruited by and was fortunate enough to play for Brown when they were a perennial top 25 D1 program, including one season they ended the regular season ranked #2 in the country.  My younger son received some light D1 recruiting interest, but was primarily recruited by academically inclined D3 schools.  He ended up choosing Bowdoin and was fortunate to play in a D3 Final Four.

My general observations: 
D1 players are generally faster and more athletic than D3 players.  They are not necessarily larger, but they are faster and more athletic.  And, on balance, D1 players are technically slightly better than their D3 counterparts.  They have to be...they're playing the game at a faster speed (think of mid-level Premier League vs. mid-level Serie A).

I believe many D1 players choose D1 not just because they're being recruited, but also because they're somewhat myopically focused on soccer and want to go as far as possible in the sport (to the extent the brain of a teenaged male thinks beyond the current moment).  Many talented soccer players who end up choosing D3 do so not just because they're not being recruited, but also because they have some awareness that they want a more rounded college experience (academics, athletics, study abroad, social life, etc.).

+K....you said basically what I was trying say much more effectively.

Just to be absolutely clear, I believe MANY of the better D3 players do or would choose a D3 over Patriot League schools, other mid-majors and sometimes perhaps Ivies.  The only tiny point I was trying to make is that one of Calipari's top 5 recruits each year don't turn down UK to attend Centre or Transy.  Yeah, I know, it's different because of the full rides, but still, the idea applies.

And the "coulda gone D1 but chose D3" was NOT directed at anyone here, and I apologize if the poster thought I was attributing that to him.  I was commenting on the larger discussion that truenorth noted resurfaces frequently.  I was referring to a refrain sometimes heard from parents on the sidelines of club games.

I know there are all sorts of reasons people make their choices....as it should be....usually folks argue that D1s offer more programs and the D3 argument is more about smaller classes, travel abroad, being able to have at least some social life, etc, etc....and there obviously is a huge difference between knowing you may sit on the bench for 4 years versus helping a D3 to the Final Four.  Context matters, too.  West looks like he could lead UVA to the Final Four in his current form, in his record-breaking senior season...doesn't mean he looked like that in his junior and senior year high school seasons or even during his good to very good first 3 years at Messiah.  And by saying that please don't conclude I'm saying he wasn't recruited by many legit D1s or could have been.

I have to say...I DO NOT like being targeted.  Some can quote every sentence and refute/prove something on each point in their mind and that's apparently fine.  I'm not disagreeing just to do it or to make anyone feel bad.  I've been posting for 5-6 years, and I've had my run-ins here and there, but when I engage in debates I do so as honestly as I can.  I've on occasion shown my feelings on my sleeve regarding my own team and biases but I think I've generally done so with transparency.  I've written articles for the site.  And often this type of forum, a lot like texting, can lead to misunderstanding what is being written or implied.  Now, if you've had some beef with me for 5 years, then by all means, let me know and let me have it....but don't act all high and mighty and super-judgmental based on a few weeks and a few series of posts.

To the best of my knowledge, BC wanted Colby Thomas and Brown wanted Luke Groothoff. Having seen him play, I imagine almost anyone would want Groothoff.

Kai Kasiguran turned down Akron, ranked at or near #1 at the time.

Quote from: Falconer on October 10, 2018, 08:27:41 PM
Having seen him play, I imagine almost anyone would want Groothoff.

Yeah Groothoff is a stud. He is someone I'd imagine a top 25 side would be after. He's already started very well and I think will only get better.

Moves from D3 to D1 are unusual, and the story of Abdulkadir Haji (aka Said Haji, aka Siad Haji) is no exception.  His background is detailed at the following link:

https://www.topdrawersoccer.com/club-soccer-articles/abdulkadir-haji-making-most-of-new-home_aid25796

After not being able to travel from New Hampshire to Foxborough for the NE Revolution Academy, he went to a few USYNT camps (https://www.facebook.com/NHPSA/posts/nhpsas-abdulkadir-said-haji-attended-his-thrid-us-national-team-camp-with-the-u1/142229715956821/), played DA for Seacoast United (http://www.seacoastunited.com/us-soccer-development-academy/news/stories/haji-to-compete-with-u19-us-national-team-in-spain), and racked up 9 goals and 2 assists for D3 New England College in 2016 (https://athletics.nec.edu/roster.aspx?rp_id=2206) before transferring to and excelling at Virginia Commonwealth University (http://www.vcuathletics.com/sports/msoc/2018-19/bios/haji_siad_ku0t) and playing for the Portland Timbers PDL team (https://www.uslpdl.com/roster_players/24881017).

Norwich, the school Haji was originally committed to (https://www.norwichathletics.com/sports/msoc/2016-17/releases/20160720hrn5ph), could definitely have used him today against St. Joe's!

Quote from: PaulNewman on October 10, 2018, 12:19:23 PM
I meant if Koh was offered scholarship to play at Stanford or Duke on front end would he really go to Chicago?  I agree few would chance leaving once already somewhere, especially if already happy.

And Syracuse is not UNC, UVA, Maryland or Wake.

Not arguing that really good D3 players couldn't play at mid-level D1s.

Syracuse is an ACC team. Not a patriot league team. They just beat #1 Wake Forest a week ago. So I don't know what level of school you are talking about. West was mentioned and I just pointed out that he indeed was recruited to an ACC school. It seems you are talking about only the top handful of players highly recruited by dozens of top tier D1 schools. Yes sure in that case probably would not choose d3. Although wasn't Jack Thompson from a few years back the HS player of the year and offered at Akron but chose Messiah. Not positive about that.

Jack was not Gatorade poy so maybe I heard wrong or some other national award. https://playeroftheyear.gatorade.com/winner/national

But I understand he was recruited by Akron.. A program with 2.recent national championships.

Then there is the unusual situation when a player spends 2 years at D3(Carthage), before getting signed by English Championship side QPR, where he is practicing alongside US International Geoff Cameron.

Giles Phillips:   https://www.qpr.co.uk/squads/first-team

Quote from: Gotberg on October 11, 2018, 09:01:12 AM
Then there is the unusual situation when a player spends 2 years at D3(Carthage), before getting signed by English Championship side QPR, where he is practicing alongside US International Geoff Cameron.

Giles Phillips:   https://www.qpr.co.uk/squads/first-team

Ah! He just missed working with 'Arry (Redknapp)!

His height is listed as "unknown cm." Relating back to these boards, I remember someone mentioning that teams sometimes fudge heights on their rosters to give players "an extra inch or two" which I didn't believe at first but came to observe seems to be the case. I'm 5'11", not "tall" by any stretch, but I recently stood next to a player who is listed as 6'1" and went "he definitely doesn't look 6'1", he's probably 5'11" or maaaaaaybe 6'." Then another player who was listed as 6'3" came over and I was like "definitely not 6'3", more likely 6'1"." Both players were standing on the same surface as I and wearing similar footwear, so it wasn't as if we were on different elevation levels. I do not profess to be a height expert, but I just found that entertaining.

Quote from: rudy on October 11, 2018, 08:30:00 AM

Quote from: PaulNewman on October 10, 2018, 12:19:23 PM
I meant if Koh was offered scholarship to play at Stanford or Duke on front end would he really go to Chicago?  I agree few would chance leaving once already somewhere, especially if already happy.

And Syracuse is not UNC, UVA, Maryland or Wake.

Not arguing that really good D3 players couldn't play at mid-level D1s.

Syracuse is an ACC team. Not a patriot league team. They just beat #1 Wake Forest a week ago. So I don't know what level of school you are talking about. West was mentioned and I just pointed out that he indeed was recruited to an ACC school. It seems you are talking about only the top handful of players highly recruited by dozens of top tier D1 schools. Yes sure in that case probably would not choose d3. Although wasn't Jack Thompson from a few years back the HS player of the year and offered at Akron but chose Messiah. Not positive about that.

Jack was not Gatorade poy so maybe I heard wrong or some other national award. https://playeroftheyear.gatorade.com/winner/national

But I understand he was recruited by Akron.. A program with 2.recent national championships.

Fair enough.  I do know that Syracuse is in the ACC and was never in the Patriot League.  I would be curious what West's #2 and other choices were IF he had not gone to Messiah.  I would guess Messiah is one of the few (or only) D3s to consistently have multiple players choosing Messiah over good to very good D1s.  And of course Messiah, as far as D3 is concerned, is sort of like a category in itself.  I thought about Thompson, as I was just glowing about him a week or two ago.  Akron would make a lot of sense, from both a talent and location perspective.  I would be curious how much the Messiah choice is very specifically tied to the mission of Messiah, similar to how I assume Calvin as an institution (regardless of D3 vs D1) was the reason both stellar Vegter brothers chose Calvin.  In other words, if there was a Messiah-like school with a decent to very good D1 program might not some of the Messiah standouts have gone there?

I'll just add an anecdote from my personal experience.  Twenty years ago when I was playing in high school I played with and against some players who got scholarships to play at low- to mid-level D1 schools. They were good, all-state, all-conference players but weren't necessarily much, if any, better than my teammates who went on to play at better D3 schools.  I had the privilege of man-marking one player who was destined for a low level D1 in a state tournament game and he proved very manageable.  Now in the state semifinal we went up against a team that had a senior who was going to be playing at UNC or NC State, I believe.  He played at a different level.  Yes, he was skilled, but he was also just so much bigger and faster and stronger than the rest of us.  He ended up with a hat trick as we simply couldn't stop him.  My feeling is that the top players at a lot of decent D3 programs could probably play D1 at some level, due to their size, speed, strength, skill, etc.  The difference is that D1 schools have whole teams made up of players like that whereas D3 programs likely only have a few players at that level.

Quote from: Dubuquer on October 11, 2018, 11:56:24 AM
My feeling is that the top players at a lot of decent D3 programs could probably play D1 at some level, due to their size, speed, strength, skill, etc.  The difference is that D1 schools have whole teams made up of players like that whereas D3 programs likely only have a few players at that level.

Ding ding ding ding ding ding!!!!

QuoteRelating back to these boards, I remember someone mentioning that teams sometimes fudge heights on their rosters to give players "an extra inch or two" which I didn't believe at first but came to observe seems to be the case

Yes, this is true.  I recently found my college programs, and the "official athletic department" program listed me at 5-11, 155 while the gameday program published for each home game had me listed as 5-10 and either 160 or 180 - depending on the week. Go figure.

QuoteMy feeling is that the top players at a lot of decent D3 programs could probably play D1 at some level, due to their size, speed, strength, skill, etc.  The difference is that D1 schools have whole teams made up of players like that whereas D3 programs likely only have a few players at that level.

Yes, this mirrors what I said earlier which was based on my experience playing D1 and D3.  The D1 teams are filled with kids who are bigger, stronger, quicker and faster.  Some of those kids exist at D3 but they won't fill a complete roster.

rudy, you got me interested in Syracuse...on an excellent 3 game win streak after relatively slow start....and looks like in the rankings the ACC has 6 out of the first 7 spots (with Indiana as the other one).

Roster comprised of 15 internationals -- 7 from Canada, 3 from Norway, 2 from Germany (including GK who was just national player of the week), and 1 each from France, Switzerland and Sweden -- and 11 US players.

Also watched some highlights.  In part the video quality is much higher so that may influence what one sees, but the first thing I notice is the increased speed of the game.  That is really striking to me because the speed of good D3 games is what always impresses me the most when I see a game live versus on streaming.  I have found D3 games watched live to be of a really high caliber, which for me makes the extra bit of speed in D1 games all the more impressive.

I remember the speed of the action was the first thing that impressed me as well years ago when I attended my first college hockey game (BC vs UVM) live.

Quote from: BillWill on October 09, 2018, 03:33:41 PM
I stated this poorly. Here's a better shot at it.

Where would the top D3 teams like Messiah/Chicago/Tufts be ranked within the D1 rankings?

Where would a top-25 D3 team like Luther/Ithica/Claremont McKenna be ranked within the D1 rankings?

Finally,

Where would a bottom D1 team like VMI/Wofford/UNC-Asheville be ranked within the D3 rankings?

The Massey ratings actually include ratings for all teams across all divisions, so we can use them to get Ken Massey's answer to your questions.

At the top end of D3:

Massey has Chicago rated #1 in D3 and #30 overall, so they fit between SIUE (#26 in D1/#29 overall) and Pacific (#27 in D1/#32 overall).

He has Conn College rated #2 in D3 and #62 overall, so they fit between Wisconsin (#46 in D1/#61 overall) and West Va. (#47 in D1/#63 overall).

Tufts is rated #3 in D3 and #82 overall, so they fit between St. Louis (#59 in D1/#80 overall) and Old Dominion (#60 in D1/#83 overall).

The second question is a little trickier because Massey thinks that Claremont, Ithaca and Luther are all well below #25 in D3.

He ranks Lycoming #25 in D3 and #321 overall, which fits between American (#166 in D1/#309 overall) and Gardner-Webb (#167 in D1/#325 overall)

And, just to choose one of your candidates, he ranks Claremont #67 in D3 and #468 overall, which fits between Detroit (#186 in D1/#443 overall) and Wofford (#187 in D1/#470 overall)

Finally, the bottom of D1.  Massey rates VMI as #206 in D1 and #935 overall.  They would fit between Geneva (#230 in D3/#930 overall) and Hardin-Simmons (#231 in D3/#936), so, pretty low.

Quote from: Buck O. on October 11, 2018, 12:54:41 PM

Quote from: BillWill on October 09, 2018, 03:33:41 PM
I stated this poorly. Here's a better shot at it.

Where would the top D3 teams like Messiah/Chicago/Tufts be ranked within the D1 rankings?

Where would a top-25 D3 team like Luther/Ithica/Claremont McKenna be ranked within the D1 rankings?

Finally,

Where would a bottom D1 team like VMI/Wofford/UNC-Asheville be ranked within the D3 rankings?

The Massey ratings actually include ratings for all teams across all divisions, so we can use them to get Ken Massey's answer to your questions.

At the top end of D3:

Massey has Chicago rated #1 in D3 and #30 overall, so they fit between SIUE (#26 in D1/#29 overall) and Pacific (#27 in D1/#32 overall).

He has Conn College rated #2 in D3 and #62 overall, so they fit between Wisconsin (#46 in D1/#61 overall) and West Va. (#47 in D1/#63 overall).

Tufts is rated #3 in D3 and #82 overall, so they fit between St. Louis (#59 in D1/#80 overall) and Old Dominion (#60 in D1/#83 overall).

The second question is a little trickier because Massey thinks that Claremont, Ithaca and Luther are all well below #25 in D3.

He ranks Lycoming #25 in D3 and #321 overall, which fits between American (#166 in D1/#309 overall) and Gardner-Webb (#167 in D1/#325 overall)

And, just to choose one of your candidates, he ranks Claremont #67 in D3 and #468 overall, which fits between Detroit (#186 in D1/#443 overall) and Wofford (#187 in D1/#470 overall)

Finally, the bottom of D1.  Massey rates VMI as #206 in D1 and #935 overall.  They would fit between Geneva (#230 in D3/#930 overall) and Hardin-Simmons (#231 in D3/#936), so, pretty low.

The only problem being they don't necessarily have the same data to use those rankings. Most D1s (if not all) are playing against mainly D1s. Same with D3s. So while he has rankings, they don't cross pollenate enough to understand how they compare against one another. I know he makes adjustments to try and make it happen, but it just doesn't have enough to be accurate in a way to give that comparison any credence.

I'll use another example. D1 has the RPI and it is relatively good in understanding strengths of schedules and such because D1 has a lot of cross-country play amongst most teams.

There technically is an RPI in DIII as well, but it can't be used as a fair representation because DIII schools don't play across the country nearly as much as would be needed. So we can't tell if the RPI is giving a good representation due to the lack of data.

I know what Massey is doing, but I don't think he can escape the fact there isn't enough games between D1 and D3 schools (that even count for that matter) to be able to actually do that kind of overall ranking.

It certainly gives an interesting point of view, but I am not sure it is that accurate or reliable.

Quote from: PaulNewman on October 11, 2018, 12:36:11 PM
rudy, you got me interested in Syracuse...on an excellent 3 game win streak after relatively slow start....and looks like in the rankings the ACC has 6 out of the first 7 spots (with Indiana as the other one).

Roster comprised of 15 internationals -- 7 from Canada, 3 from Norway, 2 from Germany (including GK who was just national player of the week), and 1 each from France, Switzerland and Sweden -- and 11 US players.

Also watched some highlights.  In part the video quality is much higher so that may influence what one sees, but the first thing I notice is the increased speed of the game.  That is really striking to me because the speed of good D3 games is what always impresses me the most when I see a game live versus on streaming.  I have found D3 games watched live to be of a really high caliber, which for me makes the extra bit of speed in D1 games all the more impressive.

I remember the speed of the action was the first thing that impressed me as well years ago when I attended my first college hockey game (BC vs UVM) live.

Paul glad you researched it a little 😊.  I haven't watched any video of them. Have watched some Maryland games cause my sons played HS with a player on their roster. He has received inconsistent playing time...bad knee injury soph year so he red shirted. Maryland struggling a bit this year but Im pretty confident it would not be a close game if they played a Chicago, Messiah, Tufts, Calvin. As others have said more high level athleticism, strength, speed, skill all over the field rather than just a few players or less at that level on an elite D3. I think these same d3 teams could compete with Ivy and Patriot league teams.

Quote from: rudy on October 11, 2018, 03:53:20 PM

Quote from: PaulNewman on October 11, 2018, 12:36:11 PM
rudy, you got me interested in Syracuse...on an excellent 3 game win streak after relatively slow start....and looks like in the rankings the ACC has 6 out of the first 7 spots (with Indiana as the other one).

Roster comprised of 15 internationals -- 7 from Canada, 3 from Norway, 2 from Germany (including GK who was just national player of the week), and 1 each from France, Switzerland and Sweden -- and 11 US players.

Also watched some highlights.  In part the video quality is much higher so that may influence what one sees, but the first thing I notice is the increased speed of the game.  That is really striking to me because the speed of good D3 games is what always impresses me the most when I see a game live versus on streaming.  I have found D3 games watched live to be of a really high caliber, which for me makes the extra bit of speed in D1 games all the more impressive.

I remember the speed of the action was the first thing that impressed me as well years ago when I attended my first college hockey game (BC vs UVM) live.

Paul glad you researched it a little 😊.  I haven't watched any video of them. Have watched some Maryland games cause my sons played HS with a player on their roster. He has received inconsistent playing time...bad knee injury soph year so he red shirted. Maryland struggling a bit this year but Im pretty confident it would not be a close game if they played a Chicago, Messiah, Tufts, Calvin. As others have said more high level athleticism, strength, speed, skill all over the field rather than just a few players or less at that level on an elite D3. I think these same d3 teams could compete with Ivy and Patriot league teams.

Now we're really on a tangent, but because I have a freshmen at Denver who is working for the SID, I've been following their soccer team this fall. They just got THUMPED at Virginia for their first loss of the season. They travel to Maryland next week, and I'm gonna catch the game.

DU has a Brazilian kid that has already scored something 21 goals.

/tangent

Anyways, I'm just going to fully agree with you point about the overall talent on a D3 squad. There might be 2 or 3 players that MIGHT be good enough to play on a D1 squad. The rest of the roster... And that depth is what would make for a huge problem, on top of the skill/athleticism/etc.

D1 rosters are littered with players that dont play and are D3 players taking space on a D1 team, used for practice, and tuition.  Just wanted to show the other side of the story.

To some of the recent points...

a) I simply don't buy Massey's rankings that suggest Chicago would be close to a top 30 D1 program.  Sounds like Chicago has a couple of attacking players who are very impressive in a D3 game.  But my guess is they would fade into the woodwork of a competitive top 30 D1 game...

b) In addition to differences in the level of athleticism, talent and technical skill between D1 and D3 players, there is also the aforementioned matter of depth.  My younger son's 2010 Bowdoin team who advanced to the D3 final four were essentially 10 players deep.  Their starting 11 were generally big, fast and very athletic for a D3 side and they could probably have competed with a lower to mid-level Ivy team for 45 minutes...but they would have been eaten alive the moment they had to begin subbing anyone from that starting 11...

Quote from: truenorth on October 11, 2018, 04:35:04 PM
b) In addition to differences in the level of athleticism, talent and technical skill between D1 and D3 players, there is also the aforementioned matter of depth.  My younger son's 2010 Bowdoin team who advanced to the D3 final four were essentially 10 players deep.  Their starting 11 were generally big, fast and very athletic for a D3 side and they could probably have competed with a lower to mid-level Ivy team for 45 minutes...but they would have been eaten alive the moment they had to begin subbing anyone from that starting 11...

One of the things that I find interesting about the D1 game is how little subbing goes on at the highest levels (e.g., ACC).  Some teams go wire-to-wire with 12 or 13 players in any given game.

Except for the recent season in which Messah didn't qualify for the tourney, they have usually held their own in full scrimmages with opponents such as Delaware, D2 Millersville, d2 champion Dowling, Princeton, Penn, Bucknell, and Columbia. I hope that list is fully accurate—I haven't done the research to verify it.

A few years ago, a member of the coaching staff told me that several players on the roster chose Messiah over a d1 program of one sort or another. My sense was he meant a majority of the starters and one or two others.

D1 transfers to Messiah are very few in my memory. Nor do I recall any in the other direction. I welcome better information.

Falcons who've played professional soccer are numerous, perhaps dozens have. No one made it to MLS, although Kai Kasiguran was.literally one injury away from playing for the Chicago fire. He was.first on the taxi squad, so to speak, but he got a major injury before someone on the Fire did, so he never got that call.

The Massey Ratings would give us a better overall rankings if they did not factor in scoring differential.

It is interesting to run the Massey match-up.  Washington University played an exhibition against Saint Louis and lost 4-1.  Massey gives SLU an 80% chance of a 2-1 win.  I think the differential would be significantly greater if it were played today.

Falconer, Messiah is without question the top flight D3 team over the last 15 years or so.  They deserve reverence and respect.  That said, they are not a D1 team, and the observation that they've held their own in scrimmages doesn't mean a whole lot...  D1 teams are probably a lot less focused on results in scrimmages than the D3 teams they occasionally scrimmage with.  Plus, Messiah is a true "one off" in D3 insofar as they sometimes attract D1 caliber players because of the college's Christian mission and values.  What goes for Messiah is not generalizable to the rest of the myriad D3 schools...

Quote from: truenorth on October 11, 2018, 08:51:16 PM
Falconer, Messiah is without question the top flight D3 team over the last 15 years or so.  They deserve reverence and respect.  That said, they are not a D1 team, and the observation that they've held their own in scrimmages doesn't mean a whole lot...  D1 teams are probably a lot less focused on results in scrimmages than the D3 teams they occasionally scrimmage with.  Plus, Messiah is a true "one off" in D3 insofar as they sometimes attract D1 caliber players because of the college's Christian mission and values.  What goes for Messiah is not generalizable to the rest of the myriad D3 schools...

You again wrote more succinctly what I was writing simultaneously, which was....

I will admit up front that I personally am less interested in how D3 teams would fare against D1s, as it is so hypothetical and IMO there is a tendency to overrate how well D3 teams, as opposed to individual players, would do.  So apologies for not starting another thread but I think my questions/comments are still reasonably relevant to the original topic.

The decisions of individual players and how they make them are not hypothetical, and so....

1)  Falconer, or other Messiah followers, I'm curious if you think the players who are D1 level players chose Messiah because it is Messiah with little consideration of NCAA Division.  In other words, did Messiah being in D3 have little to no impact in terms of the choice of Messiah.

2) It seems we could do a breakdown of categories for this discussion....D3 players for whom D3 is really the only choice, stronger players who do have a choice between D3 and mid- to lower level D1 (e.g. NESCAC, Centennial, Messiah, etc vs Patriot/Ivy), and then players who project to be real D1 studs (recruited pretty exclusively as D1 prospects) who still choose D3.  If we think of this on a continuum it would be interesting how many players in D3 fell in each category, and how many in what I would call the "non-blurry" group at the top end land in D3 and for what reasons (again, the Messiah example seems to me to be at least in some instances its own category). 

3)  And this is more a correlate of the thread topic...I'm wondering if there is less separation between higher end D3 and D1 in soccer as compared to football and basketball.  I could be wrong, but I'm assuming the very best D3 basketball teams would not be competitive with mid to lower level D1s.  This of course, if true, would make some sense in terms of the scholarship factor.  And is the blurring with soccer in terms of some D3s arguably being competitive with some D1s sort of unique or also seen with lacrosse, volleyball, swimming, track and field, etc....

Quote from: WUPHF on October 11, 2018, 05:41:41 PM
The Massey Ratings would give us a better overall rankings if they did not factor in scoring differential.

It is interesting to run the Massey match-up.  Washington University played an exhibition against Saint Louis and lost 4-1.  Massey gives SLU an 80% chance of a 2-1 win.  I think the differential would be significantly greater if it were played today.

I'm not really following you here, WUPHF.  If you ignore scoring differential, you're throwing away potentially valuable information.  That should reduce the quality of your forecast, not increase it.  There's a difference between a 7-0 win and a 2-1 win and I think it's reasonable to recognize that.

Quote from: PaulNewman on October 11, 2018, 09:14:40 PM
3)  And this is more a correlate of the thread topic...I'm wondering if there is less separation between higher end D3 and D1 in soccer as compared to football and basketball.  I could be wrong, but I'm assuming the very best D3 basketball teams would not be competitive with mid to lower level D1s.  This of course, if true, would make some sense in terms of the scholarship factor.  And is the blurring with soccer in terms of some D3s arguably being competitive with some D1s sort of unique or also seen with lacrosse, volleyball, swimming, track and field, etc....

I've had this conversation with a number of people. Just my opinion, but I think D3 soccer and D1 soccer are much closer than D3 vs. D1 football or basketball.

In addition to depth, my observation is that the big things that D1 athletic teams in each of the three sports have over D3 teams are superior fitness, physicality, and size. As truenorth pointed out, D1 soccer players do generally possess superior technical ability but I do not think that the gap between D1 and D3 in terms of technical ability is as great as the difference in size/athleticism/physicality. With that in mind, I think soccer is a game where technical ability can compensate for a lack of size/athleticism/speed, whereas football and basketball, size/athleticism/speed are seemingly paramount.

Of course, this is ultimately apples and oranges, but just my opinion.

Back to the notion of Messiah being a D3 outlier...  My sense is that many student athletes choose Messiah because of its clear Christian mission and values.  So it's likely some D1 caliber athletes choose Messiah over a D1 school for those reasons.  You simply don't find many D1 schools with as clear and cohesive a religious mission.  When you consider the traditional Catholic universities like Notre Dame, Boston College, Villanova, Georgetown, Providence, etc., they have become increasingly secular over the past 40 years, particularly in their athletics...

Quote from: truenorth on October 12, 2018, 07:50:46 AM
Back to the notion of Messiah being a D3 outlier...  My sense is that many student athletes choose Messiah because of its clear Christian mission and values.  So it's likely some D1 caliber athletes choose Messiah over a D1 school for those reasons.  You simply don't find many D1 schools with as clear and cohesive a religious mission.  When you consider the traditional Catholic universities like Notre Dame, Boston College, Villanova, Georgetown, Providence, etc., they have become increasingly secular over the past 40 years, particularly in their athletics...

While this is true about Messiah's religious basis... some players will find a way to fit into such a scope to play for a program like Messiah. So yes, they may be attracted for the religious side, but they also may go there for the soccer and make it work. Seen it on a few occasions. I think Messiah has a hook for those who want to focus a little more on their religious background, but on paper that can be a challenge for recruiting. However, that doesn't mean good players don't want to still go to those schools - in fact, I believe that sometimes they are more drawn to those schools. That's why Hope, Calvin, Wheaton (Ill. mainly), and others tend to have very strong athletic departments. That said, I also believe in a case like Messiah some students are willing to make a bit of a sacrifice (whatever that is for that student) to be on a program that is as successful as Messiah.

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on October 11, 2018, 01:02:43 PM

Quote from: Buck O. on October 11, 2018, 12:54:41 PM

Quote from: BillWill on October 09, 2018, 03:33:41 PM
I stated this poorly. Here's a better shot at it.

Where would the top D3 teams like Messiah/Chicago/Tufts be ranked within the D1 rankings?

Where would a top-25 D3 team like Luther/Ithica/Claremont McKenna be ranked within the D1 rankings?

Finally,

Where would a bottom D1 team like VMI/Wofford/UNC-Asheville be ranked within the D3 rankings?

The Massey ratings actually include ratings for all teams across all divisions, so we can use them to get Ken Massey's answer to your questions.

At the top end of D3:

Massey has Chicago rated #1 in D3 and #30 overall, so they fit between SIUE (#26 in D1/#29 overall) and Pacific (#27 in D1/#32 overall).

He has Conn College rated #2 in D3 and #62 overall, so they fit between Wisconsin (#46 in D1/#61 overall) and West Va. (#47 in D1/#63 overall).

Tufts is rated #3 in D3 and #82 overall, so they fit between St. Louis (#59 in D1/#80 overall) and Old Dominion (#60 in D1/#83 overall).

The second question is a little trickier because Massey thinks that Claremont, Ithaca and Luther are all well below #25 in D3.

He ranks Lycoming #25 in D3 and #321 overall, which fits between American (#166 in D1/#309 overall) and Gardner-Webb (#167 in D1/#325 overall)

And, just to choose one of your candidates, he ranks Claremont #67 in D3 and #468 overall, which fits between Detroit (#186 in D1/#443 overall) and Wofford (#187 in D1/#470 overall)

Finally, the bottom of D1.  Massey rates VMI as #206 in D1 and #935 overall.  They would fit between Geneva (#230 in D3/#930 overall) and Hardin-Simmons (#231 in D3/#936), so, pretty low.

The only problem being they don't necessarily have the same data to use those rankings. Most D1s (if not all) are playing against mainly D1s. Same with D3s. So while he has rankings, they don't cross pollenate enough to understand how they compare against one another. I know he makes adjustments to try and make it happen, but it just doesn't have enough to be accurate in a way to give that comparison any credence.

I'll use another example. D1 has the RPI and it is relatively good in understanding strengths of schedules and such because D1 has a lot of cross-country play amongst most teams.

There technically is an RPI in DIII as well, but it can't be used as a fair representation because DIII schools don't play across the country nearly as much as would be needed. So we can't tell if the RPI is giving a good representation due to the lack of data.

I know what Massey is doing, but I don't think he can escape the fact there isn't enough games between D1 and D3 schools (that even count for that matter) to be able to actually do that kind of overall ranking.

It certainly gives an interesting point of view, but I am not sure it is that accurate or reliable.

I would point out that the ability to compare D1 and D3 schools doesn't rely solely on games between teams in those divisions.  If D1 schools play D2 schools and D2 schools play D3 schools, those results will also contribute to the comparison across all three divisions (and more, as I think he has non-NCAA schools included as well).  But the points you make are still fair ones.  With such limited data, the degree of confidence you can have in the results is correspondingly limited.

Quote from: truenorth on October 12, 2018, 07:50:46 AM
Back to the notion of Messiah being a D3 outlier...  My sense is that many student athletes choose Messiah because of its clear Christian mission and values.  So it's likely some D1 caliber athletes choose Messiah over a D1 school for those reasons.  You simply don't find many D1 schools with as clear and cohesive a religious mission.  When you consider the traditional Catholic universities like Notre Dame, Boston College, Villanova, Georgetown, Providence, etc., they have become increasingly secular over the past 40 years, particularly in their athletics...

Excellent thoughts, truenorth, thank you for putting things so clearly.

I don't see any Falcon team I can remember being capable of consistently beating top-40 D1 teams, but at least a few Falcon teams would probably have been capable of winning a majority of their games in some of the less competitive D1 conferences. Obviously there is no way of knowing this, and anyone is fully entitled to be very skeptical of my view.

Even at an "outlier" like Messiah, the presence of a genuine high D1 level player is the exception, not the rule. Perhaps half a dozen Falcons of that type since 2000, when the first title came. IMO Gruthoff is one of them and West (this year only) another, and that's just not going to get it done in the ACC or the Big Ten.

You're certainly right about their mission being a factor in drawing such players—especially when siblings are involved. It's hard to think of any Falcon teams that did not include at least one player whose brother(s) also played at Messiah. Families choose the school for religious reasons—as well as the soccer. If one son has a great experience others follow. In truly rare instances, an exceptional athlete makes that choice, for the same reasons that some exceptional students make that choice (more of these than the top athletes for sure).

Call me niave, but I do not think the gap between a D1 and D3 soccer player is that big.
Baseball Yes.
Football (American) Yes.
Basketball Hellz Yes.

Soccer, not so much.
It is all aclimation.

I played with a few kids who went professional or for their countries during and after college. (MLS/A-League/International professional leagues).

Some of the guys who did not go pro were  (in my opinion more gifted) than guys who did.

Its all about aclimation, there are some real Ballers in D3 soccer. Several International kids, and home grown monsters.
For whatever reason, lucky for us they choose to play in D3 as opposed to other leagues.

I would wager that if you took the top half of players from  the top 25 D3 squads and drop them in a semi-pro  league in Europe, quite a few would develop  into full fledged professionals over the next few years after focusing on their craft as opposed to 10 page mid-term papers due the next week.

The average fan does not get that the secret of this game is game in ball control and manipulation over all else (except for confidence).

Quote from: Saint of Old on October 13, 2018, 09:24:18 AM
Call me niave, but I do not think the gap between a D1 and D3 soccer player is that big.
Baseball Yes.
Football (American) Yes.
Basketball Hellz Yes.

Soccer, not so much.
It is all aclimation.

I played with a few kids who went professional or for their countries during and after college. (MLS/A-League/International professional leagues).

Some of the guys who did not go pro were  (in my opinion more gifted) than guys who did.

Its all about aclimation, there are some real Ballers in D3 soccer. Several International kids, and home grown monsters.
For whatever reason, lucky for us they choose to play in D3 as opposed to other leagues.

I would wager that if you took the top half of players from  the top 25 D3 squads and drop them in a semi-pro  league in Europe, quite a few would develop  into full fledged professionals over the next few years after focusing on their craft as opposed to 10 page mid-term papers due the next week.

The average fan does not get that the secret of this game is game in ball control and manipulation over all else (except for confidence).

+K Saint. I hear a lot about size being a factor for college recruiters both at D1 and D3. In this board size is mentioned a lot. Ball control and intelligence along with speed of mind and play are often overlooked. As a parent of a smaller player I have seen it first hand. One factor in chosing Messiah over others is the staff knew after attending one clinic that he was on their list of top 5 recruits regardless of size.  They know a player when they see it. Too many coaches, including many Nescac, are blinded by size. Look at Messiah roster over the years and they typically have many starters 5' 8" or shorter.  The argument is sometimes the style of play in a particular league requires large players. Maybe they should change style of play to utilize skill and smart team players and not be so concerned about scoring only on set plays and recruit highly skilled and savvy soccer players first and foremost. My 2 cents

And a +K to you as well and to your boy.
Over the last 40 years the best two players (arguably) have been two short South Americans.

I am 5 12' myself, and I think that guys 2 inches or more taller than I am have a bit of a disadvantage in the game.
A low center of gravity does wonders in terms of turning radius and overall manipulation.
There are tall guys that are really skillful ballers, but I think this is more rare than people think.

Also, you hit it on the head, brain speed is much much more important than height.

SLU has had a 6 6' center back for the past 16 years or so, and this works I think in that particular position, but still not necessary.
The sweeper I played with was 5 9'.

Brain Speed/Foot Speed combination is what it takes, this is not basketball or American football.

Quote from: Saint of Old on October 13, 2018, 10:02:23 AM
And a +K to you as well and to your boy.
Over the last 40 years the best two players (arguably) have been two short South Americans.

I am 5 12' myself, and I think that guys 2 inches or more taller than I am have a bit of a disadvantage in the game.
A low center of gravity does wonders in terms of turning radius and overall manipulation.
There are tall guys that are really skillful ballers, but I think this is more rare than people think.

Also, you hit it on the head, brain speed is much much more important than height.

SLU has had a 6 6' center back for the past 16 years or so, and this works I think in that particular position, but still not necessary.
The sweeper I played with was 5 9'.

Brain Speed/Foot Speed combination is what it takes, this is not basketball or American football.

Iniesta one of my favorites. 5' 7" and not exactly a physical specimen relative to strength and traditional view of an athlete. Slightly built. But a magician on the field.  Pele and Messi short in stature but physically stronger build than Iniesta. All well under 6ft. Maradonna another. Like you said sometimes shorter players have and advantage over taller players. Short turn radius, often quicker in short distances, etc. Messiah did a mission type trip to Colombia summer 2017 where they played several amateur and one pro team.  Most were shorter players but my son said they all were extremely comfortable with the ball at their feet.

Quote from: rudy on October 13, 2018, 09:54:28 AM

Quote from: Saint of Old on October 13, 2018, 09:24:18 AM
Call me niave, but I do not think the gap between a D1 and D3 soccer player is that big.
Baseball Yes.
Football (American) Yes.
Basketball Hellz Yes.

Soccer, not so much.
It is all aclimation.

I played with a few kids who went professional or for their countries during and after college. (MLS/A-League/International professional leagues).

Some of the guys who did not go pro were  (in my opinion more gifted) than guys who did.

Its all about aclimation, there are some real Ballers in D3 soccer. Several International kids, and home grown monsters.
For whatever reason, lucky for us they choose to play in D3 as opposed to other leagues.

I would wager that if you took the top half of players from  the top 25 D3 squads and drop them in a semi-pro  league in Europe, quite a few would develop  into full fledged professionals over the next few years after focusing on their craft as opposed to 10 page mid-term papers due the next week.

The average fan does not get that the secret of this game is game in ball control and manipulation over all else (except for confidence).

+K Saint. I hear a lot about size being a factor for college recruiters both at D1 and D3. In this board size is mentioned a lot. Ball control and intelligence along with speed of mind and play are often overlooked. As a parent of a smaller player I have seen it first hand. One factor in chosing Messiah over others is the staff knew after attending one clinic that he was on their list of top 5 recruits regardless of size.  They know a player when they see it. Too many coaches, including many Nescac, are blinded by size. Look at Messiah roster over the years and they typically have many starters 5' 8" or shorter.  The argument is sometimes the style of play in a particular league requires large players. Maybe they should change style of play to utilize skill and smart team players and not be so concerned about scoring only on set plays and recruit highly skilled and savvy soccer players first and foremost. My 2 cents

It was interesting to read your thoughts on this.  When he was a freshman, my son played against the Milton 2015 team.  He was quite impressed with the team in general and with your son in particular, whom he thought was the best player on the field.  As you know, a number of the kids on that team went on to D1 programs, including one player who went to Maryland, and my son was very surprised that Shay wasn't going to a top-level D1 school.  That led to a discussion of the importance of size in recruiting, which was personally relevant to my son given that, while he's bigger than Shay, he's still a bit shorter than average.

Quote from: Buck O. on October 13, 2018, 01:13:49 PM

Quote from: rudy on October 13, 2018, 09:54:28 AM

Quote from: Saint of Old on October 13, 2018, 09:24:18 AM
Call me niave, but I do not think the gap between a D1 and D3 soccer player is that big.
Baseball Yes.
Football (American) Yes.
Basketball Hellz Yes.

Soccer, not so much.
It is all aclimation.

I played with a few kids who went professional or for their countries during and after college. (MLS/A-League/International professional leagues).

Some of the guys who did not go pro were  (in my opinion more gifted) than guys who did.

Its all about aclimation, there are some real Ballers in D3 soccer. Several International kids, and home grown monsters.
For whatever reason, lucky for us they choose to play in D3 as opposed to other leagues.

I would wager that if you took the top half of players from  the top 25 D3 squads and drop them in a semi-pro  league in Europe, quite a few would develop  into full fledged professionals over the next few years after focusing on their craft as opposed to 10 page mid-term papers due the next week.

The average fan does not get that the secret of this game is game in ball control and manipulation over all else (except for confidence).

+K Saint. I hear a lot about size being a factor for college recruiters both at D1 and D3. In this board size is mentioned a lot. Ball control and intelligence along with speed of mind and play are often overlooked. As a parent of a smaller player I have seen it first hand. One factor in chosing Messiah over others is the staff knew after attending one clinic that he was on their list of top 5 recruits regardless of size.  They know a player when they see it. Too many coaches, including many Nescac, are blinded by size. Look at Messiah roster over the years and they typically have many starters 5' 8" or shorter.  The argument is sometimes the style of play in a particular league requires large players. Maybe they should change style of play to utilize skill and smart team players and not be so concerned about scoring only on set plays and recruit highly skilled and savvy soccer players first and foremost. My 2 cents

It was interesting to read your thoughts on this.  When he was a freshman, my son played against the Milton 2015 team.  He was quite impressed with the team in general and with your son in particular, whom he thought was the best player on the field.  As you know, a number of the kids on that team went on to D1 programs, including one player who went to Maryland, and my son was very surprised that Shay wasn't going to a top-level D1 school.  That led to a discussion of the importance of size in recruiting, which was personally relevant to my son given that, while he's bigger than Shay, he's still a bit shorter than average.

What team did your son play for Buck?  Was it an isl team?  Milton had a great team that season.  It was a lot of fun. Has he decided to play in college? Maybe I'll message you as I'm getting a little off  topic..

In the spirit of offering anecdotes...

I was curious about how a kid is doing who became a bit of a legend in Eastern Mass....broke all of his father's scoring records in high school, scored 97 goals, led his team as a junior to an undefeated season and state title, and received most of the awards one could win, including All American status.  He has yet to play a single minute for UNH as a frosh and I couldn't find any indication that he is injured.  I was surprised to see that UNH is nationally ranked and has a slew of foreign players.

Quote from: rudy on October 13, 2018, 01:01:52 PM

Quote from: Saint of Old on October 13, 2018, 10:02:23 AM
And a +K to you as well and to your boy.
Over the last 40 years the best two players (arguably) have been two short South Americans.

I am 5 12' myself, and I think that guys 2 inches or more taller than I am have a bit of a disadvantage in the game.
A low center of gravity does wonders in terms of turning radius and overall manipulation.
There are tall guys that are really skillful ballers, but I think this is more rare than people think.

Also, you hit it on the head, brain speed is much much more important than height.

SLU has had a 6 6' center back for the past 16 years or so, and this works I think in that particular position, but still not necessary.
The sweeper I played with was 5 9'.

Brain Speed/Foot Speed combination is what it takes, this is not basketball or American football.

Iniesta one of my favorites. 5' 7" and not exactly a physical specimen relative to strength and traditional view of an athlete. Slightly built. But a magician on the field.  Pele and Messi short in stature but physically stronger build than Iniesta. All well under 6ft. Maradonna another. Like you said sometimes shorter players have and advantage over taller players. Short turn radius, often quicker in short distances, etc. Messiah did a mission type trip to Colombia summer 2017 where they played several amateur and one pro team.  Most were shorter players but my son said they all were extremely comfortable with the ball at their feet.

Just curious, how did they fare against the Colombian sides?

Quote from: NEsoccerfan on October 15, 2018, 12:29:04 PM

Just curious, how did they fare against the Colombian sides?

If I recall correctly they won 3 against amateur sides and lost maybe 5-3 to second division pro team.

Just looked up the team they lost to was Leones 2nd Division Pro Team. Looks like they were promoted to first division for 2018...interesting..first year ever in A division