MBB: MAC Freedom League

[CCHoopster]

It appears FDU Florham's Peter Marion is out as head coach. Continuing to follow.

In other news, Manhattanville will be leaving the MAC. Who replaces them or does the Freedom keep 7?

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

It appears FDU Florham's Peter Marion is out as head coach. Continuing to follow.

In other news, Manhattanville will be leaving the MAC. Who replaces them or does the Freedom keep 7?

There are a lot of moving parts behind the scenes... this is a wait and see one to be sure.

[CCHoopster]

It appears FDU Florham's Peter Marion is out as head coach. Continuing to follow.

In other news, Manhattanville will be leaving the MAC. Who replaces them or does the Freedom keep 7?

There are a lot of moving parts behind the scenes... this is a wait and see one to be sure.

Seems to be a done deal on the Skyline website:  http://skylineconference.org/news/2018/5/9/general-manhattanville-to-join-skyline-conference-in-2019-20-academic-year.aspx

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

It appears FDU Florham's Peter Marion is out as head coach. Continuing to follow.

In other news, Manhattanville will be leaving the MAC. Who replaces them or does the Freedom keep 7?

There are a lot of moving parts behind the scenes... this is a wait and see one to be sure.

Seems to be a done deal on the Skyline website:  http://skylineconference.org/news/2018/5/9/general-manhattanville-to-join-skyline-conference-in-2019-20-academic-year.aspx

I think he meant lots of moving parts with regards to a replacement team - MA teams will certainly be moving around a bit and the Atlantic will probably be affected.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

It appears FDU Florham's Peter Marion is out as head coach. Continuing to follow.

In other news, Manhattanville will be leaving the MAC. Who replaces them or does the Freedom keep 7?

There are a lot of moving parts behind the scenes... this is a wait and see one to be sure.

Seems to be a done deal on the Skyline website:  http://skylineconference.org/news/2018/5/9/general-manhattanville-to-join-skyline-conference-in-2019-20-academic-year.aspx

I think he meant lots of moving parts with regards to a replacement team - MA teams will certainly be moving around a bit and the Atlantic will probably be affected.

Yes - I am referring to the future for the Freedom and ... others. There are a lot of things going on. What the Freedom (MAC) decides to do... is going to be a wait and see thing because of other moving parts not made public - or maybe not even happening (things are rather complicated from what I am putting together).

[CCHoopster]

It appears FDU Florham's Peter Marion is out as head coach. Continuing to follow.

In other news, Manhattanville will be leaving the MAC. Who replaces them or does the Freedom keep 7?

There are a lot of moving parts behind the scenes... this is a wait and see one to be sure.

Seems to be a done deal on the Skyline website:  http://skylineconference.org/news/2018/5/9/general-manhattanville-to-join-skyline-conference-in-2019-20-academic-year.aspx

I think he meant lots of moving parts with regards to a replacement team - MA teams will certainly be moving around a bit and the Atlantic will probably be affected.

Yes - I am referring to the future for the Freedom and ... others. There are a lot of things going on. What the Freedom (MAC) decides to do... is going to be a wait and see thing because of other moving parts not made public - or maybe not even happening (things are rather complicated from what I am putting together).

Makes sense... interesting for sure. Freedom not nearly as tough as the CWealth, so if it ends up as simple as moving one over, someone could be a happy camper. Alvernia, Arcadia make sense and one could possibly reach for Lyco since there are some "mountain" schools in the Freedom (Kings, Wilkes, Mis)...

[kate]

Yes, Wilkes, King's and Misericordia are definitely "mountain teams" and so IS Lycoming, but Lyco is just a tad further west!

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

The trick with "moving one over" is that I think the rest of the division (which is already frustrated with the MAC's grandfather clause) is getting tired of movement to solve problems. I can't remember what was said or the specifics, but I do remember the last time the MAC moved a team to solve some of the numbers ... there were some in the division who were tired of it. They understand the grandfather clause, they aren't fans but realize it isn't changing, but they wish the two sides acted more like two conferences than one. When the conference moves a team to even numbers every few years, they act more like one conference than two and that is pushing buttons with others.

Who knows if that will be the case if that is what the MAC does again ... but I think the MAC has to be a little careful with perception. I know those in the MAC have claimed to me that no one in the division has complained to them. I don't know if that is true, but I do know there are others who are frustrated. Maybe it is also just sour grapes (you know, like in the MAC about their membership which they voted to approve in the first place LOL).

[kate]

Seriously, Dave, not quite sure what you're referring to, but after 21 years of following the MAC's Del Val, i've personally always thought it was a very cool, diverse league.   Granted, Manhattanville was a bit of a trek for oldies like Hubby and me, but we've really enjoyed getting to know the other MAC schools - our particular favorites, DeSales because of great concession food and close proximity and Wilkes, just cause we love the drive and the school is so "dear".   On the other side, we love the trip to Leb Val - beautiful gym.   Mighty MAC, Dave, Mighty MAC!!!  Would also be remiss if i didn't mention Widener, coached by none other than Del Val's own, Alisa DiBonaventura Kintner!   Also a favorite, King's coached by Belvidere High School and Marywood grad, Caitlin H.   Guess you got the picture, we love our MAC!!!

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Seriously, Dave, not quite sure what you're referring to, but after 21 years of following the MAC's Del Val, i've personally always thought it was a very cool, diverse league.   Granted, Manhattanville was a bit of a trek for oldies like Hubby and me, but we've really enjoyed getting to know the other MAC schools - our particular favorites, DeSales because of great concession food and close proximity and Wilkes, just cause we love the drive and the school is so "dear".   On the other side, we love the trip to Leb Val - beautiful gym.   Mighty MAC, Dave, Mighty MAC!!!  Would also be remiss if i didn't mention Widener, coached by none other than Del Val's own, Alisa DiBonaventura Kintner!   Also a favorite, King's coached by Belvidere High School and Marywood grad, Caitlin H.   Guess you got the picture, we love our MAC!!!

kate - I wasn't talking internally. I was talking about how the MAC is perceived outside of the MAC. I am not sure how when I discuss these things those like yourself don't quite understand ... the MAC has a grandfather clause that basically allows it to be two conferences despite the fact it is really one conference (one office, one commissioner, etc.). As a result of the grandfather, the Commonwealth and the Freedom enjoy AQs each. Two bids.

Go around the country and look at other large conferences. ASC, USA South, NEAC, etc., etc. They all get ONE bid. They each have divisions (like the Commonwealth and the Freedom), but they get ONE bid. They will NEVER be allowed two bids.

The problem many in the rest of the division have is this exact difference. The MAC can have essentially two divisions and get two bids; no other conference can have two bids. What I believe draws more ire from those outside is when the MAC decides to solve number problems between the Commonwealth and Freedom by simply moving teams around. Move team from one group to the other. Problem solved. It is the same that other conferences do with their divisions if need be, but again ... the MAC has two bids and is supposed to act like they are two difference conferences, but when they simply move teams around the MAC acts like they are divisions.

Those on the outside wish the Commonwealth and the Freedom didn't have the MAC commonality to many extents. Having one office, one commissioner, one set of rules basically for both ... and sometimes treating them like divisions instead of separate conferences bugs people. Normally when switching conferences there are several steps, applications, and whatnot to fill out. In the MAC, they simply switch sides.

This has nothing to do with how you or others think of the MAC from the inside. It is relatively diverse (less so than you make it seem), though it has had a very diverse history. You are welcome to keep loving the conference. I never said otherwise. I'm simply pointing out that outside of the conference and the region, the MAC confuses and frustrates other people and conferences. I am quite sure it confuses them more when they contact the NCAA office asking if they can have two bids for their two-division sports ... and the NCAA says no.

That is what I am referring to.

[kate]

Thanks Dave!   Of course, for football we just have that one bid - personally, I'd love to see more schools (outside the MAC now) added.   That's just me and thanks, again for the explanation!

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Thanks Dave!   Of course, for football we just have that one bid - personally, I'd love to see more schools (outside the MAC now) added.   That's just me and thanks, again for the explanation!

Yes - football has one bid and maybe other sports (didn't look it up)... that I think adds to the fire, but that isn't that big a deal IMHO.

Not sure adding schools to the MAC is the right move. Make the conference too big and there are bigger problems internally.

[jmcozenlaw]

I've been posting about some of the conversations that have been going on behind the scenes for quite some time......................and some of them are coming to fruition. The conference reshuffling game is just getting ramped up and could be significant over the next couple of years. Some tidbits (and whether some of these mean anything or nothing to the board, most will have direct or six-degrees-of-Kevin-Bacon-indirect repercussions as time moves on:

- Lancaster Bible College is desperately trying to get out of the NEAC as Bryn Athyn and Wilson leave the NEAC for the remaining CSAC and the New York schools in the Northern division of the NEAC aren't long for the NEAC as well. Somebody very close to the matter (maybe Wags has some insight) told me that LBC blew an opportunity to join the slimmed down CSAC. The invite was there.......and they blew it. LBC is putting money into facilities and adding sports. The NEAC may very well not be around in a couple of years, especially if the quiet movement to bring the PSU schools back together actually happens

- Manhattanville is the first of a handful of schools in the MAC (both conferences) that has had discussions with other conferences to possibly make a move. Manhattanville WILL NOT be the last. Manhattanville was a geographical outlier to the north as Stevenson is to the south.

- I heard that the CAC (with three MD schools and York across the state line) has had quiet conversations with Stevenson but have not heard how those conversations are progressing. I have heard that if Stevenson were to make such a move, the football team might possibly make a move to the NJAC (to join two other MD teams) and the MAC would have no problem with that at all, in fact, they might push for such a move BECAUSE...............word should be coming out within the next several months regarding at least one, if not two, current MAC schools adding football. The same person who told me about Alvernia football a couple of years before it happened (as well as Alvernia wrestling as well) has given me some info that I can't mention here BUT Alvernia now makes 11 MAC football teams. Keystone could make 12. Subtract Stevenson and back to 11. Subtract another unnamed team that might be announcing a conference move in the not to distant future and now the MAC is back to 10. Add two new MAC schools and get to 12, with two, six team divisions........................until the next round of conference roulette.

- The Arcadia move to the new Atlantic East is not permanently dead so I don't see the Commonwealth "sending" them to the Freedom. Some within Arcadia are smelling themselves a bit too much. A name change from Beaver College to Arcadia does not make one M.I.T.

- FDU is also having internal discussions about their future in the MAC but I have no clue where they could move that would make sense, at least under the current iteration of conferences.

- Keep the names Misericordia and Lycoming in mind. Nothing specific at this point. If it happens, you'll say, "JM told me to keep these two schools in mind".

- Holy Family (Northeast Philadelphia) is considering a move down to D-III. 50/50 at this point.

- I heard a few rumors about what the CAC might be looking at for it's future viability and survival. There have been quiet conversations with a MAC school or two. They would love.........and Messiah is slowlyyyyyyyyyy warming up to the idea.

I don't know how much of this ever comes to fruition. I'm pretty confident about a lot of the LBC/NEAC/CSAC stuff and feel the same way about the future of football in the MAC. The rest of the stuff, we'll see. Possible? Sure, what isn't. Probable? In bits and pieces.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I've been following this behind the scenes for quite a bit, especially since we broke the story last year about the AEC. Thoughts below:

I've been posting about some of the conversations that have been going on behind the scenes for quite some time......................and some of them are coming to fruition. The conference reshuffling game is just getting ramped up and could be significant over the next couple of years. Some tidbits (and whether some of these mean anything or nothing to the board, most will have direct or six-degrees-of-Kevin-Bacon-indirect repercussions as time moves on:

- Lancaster Bible College is desperately trying to get out of the NEAC as Bryn Athyn and Wilson leave the NEAC for the remaining CSAC and the New York schools in the Northern division of the NEAC aren't long for the NEAC as well. Somebody very close to the matter (maybe Wags has some insight) told me that LBC blew an opportunity to join the slimmed down CSAC. The invite was there.......and they blew it. LBC is putting money into facilities and adding sports. The NEAC may very well not be around in a couple of years, especially if the quiet movement to bring the PSU schools back together actually happens

For as desperate as LBC is being, as one source told me - they need to figure things out on their side.

I think the NEAC will be around, there are plenty of schools that need a home (remember, Harrisburg is returning)... but it may not look like what everyone has gotten used to. The northern side is getting ancy (sp?), but they don't have the numbers to make grand moves.

As for the PSU stuff... I keep hearing that stuff, but I cannot get anyone to agree it is sound. There are FAR too many variables and FAR too many schools that are not ready - nor will they be ready for quite some time. That is a VERY long term idea if it ever gets anywhere.

- Manhattanville is the first of a handful of schools in the MAC (both conferences) that has had discussions with other conferences to possibly make a move. Manhattanville WILL NOT be the last. Manhattanville was a geographical outlier to the north as Stevenson is to the south.

Maybe Manhattanville won't be the last... BUT it doesn't mean the flood gates are opening. Honestly, there has to be a major shuffle ahead and from the many conversations I have had ... that isn't there, yet. Yes, the CAC adds something to this (see below), but usually when people talk about moves in the MAC ... they don't end up happening at all.

I have been told that the AEC may be eyeing a couple of MAC schools themselves. One of them makes sense... the other does not for a LOT of reasons - especially distance.

- I heard that the CAC (with three MD schools and York across the state line) has had quiet conversations with Stevenson but have not heard how those conversations are progressing. I have heard that if Stevenson were to make such a move, the football team might possibly make a move to the NJAC (to join two other MD teams) and the MAC would have no problem with that at all, in fact, they might push for such a move BECAUSE...............word should be coming out within the next several months regarding at least one, if not two, current MAC schools adding football. The same person who told me about Alvernia football a couple of years before it happened (as well as Alvernia wrestling as well) has given me some info that I can't mention here BUT Alvernia now makes 11 MAC football teams. Keystone could make 12. Subtract Stevenson and back to 11. Subtract another unnamed team that might be announcing a conference move in the not to distant future and now the MAC is back to 10. Add two new MAC schools and get to 12, with two, six team divisions........................until the next round of conference roulette.

Where do I start LOL...

I don't see any reason for Stevenson to return to the CAC. None. They left and now have better competition in the MAC. They also need the MAC for football and there is NO reason the MAC would want to keep them (since the MAC has numbers) should they leave. Could Stevenson help with a Frostburg departure in the NJAC? Sure, but not needed. I need to call around on this, but this feels more like people saying "you know, we could talk to Stevenson" versus actual conversations happening.

Keystone is NOT coming to the MAC for football. They already accepted an invitation to the ECFC - that is public knowledge.

A lot of what you write here... feels like the same stuff I hear on almost a yearly basis about the MAC, Stevenson, and the Mid-Atlantic. Most of it is started or spread by those who don't love Stevenson being in the MAC (despite the fact the MAC voted them in; can't have it both ways folks!). Stevenson helps the MAC stay competitive; the MAC helps Stevenson stay competitive.

Football is a huge part of all of this... I think going to the CAC for Stevenson is too risky with the football element. And the CAC doesn't have enough numbers to make football work on their end - a previous commissioner already blew that chance.

Two more schools in the MAC adding football? Eh. Not sure.

- The Arcadia move to the new Atlantic East is not permanently dead so I don't see the Commonwealth "sending" them to the Freedom. Some within Arcadia are smelling themselves a bit too much. A name change from Beaver College to Arcadia does not make one M.I.T.

Now, Arcadia is still rumored to be involved with the AEC - but it depends who I talk to. I can talk to one who is in the know and I get they are coming to the AEC in a year. I talk to another and they say Arcadia has pulled out altogether and not coming at all. Talk to someone else and they are coming in August 2018 (though, that is pretty much no longer the case as time has worn on). I am not sure if Arcadia knows what they are doing.

Arcadia has made big moves, but I also hear they may be in a little bit of trouble. I also think their whole "waiting for a president to make a conference decision" ended up shooting themselves in the foot.

I don't see the MAC moving any teams around for what I stated a few days ago ... but anything is possible.

- FDU is also having internal discussions about their future in the MAC but I have no clue where they could move that would make sense, at least under the current iteration of conferences.

LOL Everyone has these conversations... but FDU doesn't exactly have a place to go as you said. They need the conference because of football. The NJAC won't take them and I doubt other conferences are interested due to location. If football wasn't a factor the ... CAC could be an option, but that football thing makes things messy.

- Keep the names Misericordia and Lycoming in mind. Nothing specific at this point. If it happens, you'll say, "JM told me to keep these two schools in mind".

Now you are just throwing things around. LOL

I did mention to some people I thought Lyco could solve some problems up in New York State... but that opportunity is gone.

- Holy Family (Northeast Philadelphia) is considering a move down to D-III. 50/50 at this point.

Let me point you to Valley Forge and others ... as in ... okay ... but this is several years at least in the future and a program like these is why the NEAC will never die.

- I heard a few rumors about what the CAC might be looking at for it's future viability and survival. There have been quiet conversations with a MAC school or two. They would love.........and Messiah is slowlyyyyyyyyyy warming up to the idea.

Those aren't rumors... of course the CAC is looking at it's future viability and survival. We have been saying that for a year now (or nearly). They have to make a move. However, I will tell you that you are looking in the wrong place. The schools I've been told, and am not allowed to repeat, are not in the MAC. There are better options I think out there for the CAC... BUT Harrisburg already leaving (back to the NEAC) and strong speculation Frostburg is going DII (in two years minimum) means the CAC has to get aggressive with their thinking.

Here is the problem with your Messiah idea ... why the f--- would they do that? Schools are leaving the CAC because of the behemoths of Salisbury, Christopher Newport, Mary Washington, etc. State schools with lower tuitions. Stevenson left for a lot of the same reasons (though, there are others I don't want to go into SMH)... Marymount, Wesley are currently leaving... Goucher and Catholic already started this whole moving thing. Why would Messiah think about it. Their only competition, for the most part, in the MAC is Stevenson ... and they are doing well even in lacrosse. Enter the CAC and those chances become harder and more difficult. Messiah going to the CAC makes zero sense to me.

The Messiah talk is very much like the rumors I usually hear in this region ... and they go no where because they are simply dreams people have ... and for some reason speak out (not you jmcozenlaw; others).

I don't know how much of this ever comes to fruition. I'm pretty confident about a lot of the LBC/NEAC/CSAC stuff and feel the same way about the future of football in the MAC. The rest of the stuff, we'll see. Possible? Sure, what isn't. Probable? In bits and pieces.

Yes... LBC has had chances... yes, they have screwed them up. As a result... they have no where to go right now.

Football in the MAC... I can get some people on that... but I think for some schools adding football will do more harm than good - and that goes for some who have now done it.

As for the rest of your stuff... you see my thoughts.

BTW - there is a player elsewhere that could shake things up. Not directly impact things around here ... but indirectly. And since I know what is afoot, I will not speak of it until I can speak of it (versus stirring the pot).

[lefty2]

That is probably the first time Messiah and an f-bomb reference have ever been typed in the same sentence.