Future of Division III

[Gregory Sager]

I should also point out that Longwood is the only public school for whom I made an exception on my list of 37, because of its size, location, and noteworthy (albeit brief) history within D3.

I don't think that the ODAC would accept a public school as a member. Someone tell me if I'm wrong about that, but I seem to remember this issue coming up on the boards before. Nevertheless, Longwood would be a natural for the C2C, which is beginning to develop a core group of institutions in Maryland, Virginia, and North Carolina.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

If you go back far enough one one of these boards you'll see posting in 2008 (or earlier).  I got to know a retired Big-12 (I think SWC when he was there) AD who predicted a 64-team power league even way back then.  Four divisions of 16 teams each, who would just run their own sports by their own rules.

It's not hard to see the Big-10, SEC, Notre Dame, UConn, and the pick of the litter from the ACC and Big-12 to get to 64.

This makes the most sense, so almost certainly we'll end up with 67 or 71 or some random, less pretty number.

[CNU85]

I should also point out that Longwood is the only public school for whom I made an exception on my list of 37, because of its size, location, and noteworthy (albeit brief) history within D3.

I don't think that the ODAC would accept a public school as a member. Someone tell me if I'm wrong about that, but I seem to remember this issue coming up on the boards before. Nevertheless, Longwood would be a natural for the C2C, which is beginning to develop a core group of institutions in Maryland, Virginia, and North Carolina.

Ahhh you are correct. I missed that part. The ODAC bylaws state Private Schools only. I doubt they would ever make an exception. There is no need to.

[MCScots2013]

I went to high school about half a mile from Longwood and back then (mid-late 00s) they were the talk of the town about how bad they were. HSC smoked them in an exhibition basketball game one year. All my buddies that went to HSC still get a good laugh at that.

Brand new turf baseball field and regraded softball field. Lacrosse and field hockey have a like Boise State-like turf too. Basketball and softball have made the tourney multiple times in recent years. They ain't goin' nowhere.

[Tigerfan]

You didn't note Longwood's $40 million, 3000+ seating, basketball palace that is in its second season.  The Brock Center is quite nice.  Although former Tiger player Griff Aldrich, who took Longwood to the NCAA tournament twice, has moved on to coach with his old teammate Ryan Odom at UVA, there is no talk in Farmville of Longwood moving to D3.

[Jake Feldman]

I'd personally use this framework for Division alignment
Division I would allow scholarships, rev-share, and NIL
Division II would only be scholarships, no player income.
Division III would be split in half by department budget, allowing for weaker conferences to have a shot at national titles in major sports.

For the D3 split, I'd do it by the average athletic budget in each league. The top 20 leagues (such as the NESCAC, UAA, WIAC, and leagues that opt to go D3 after the inevitable D1 fissure breaks) would be in the D3 University Division, while the remaining leagues would be in the College Division. This split would allow the smaller schools/conferences (like the UMAC or UEC) to have a chance to have an even playing field in terms of competitive balance. You've all seen those games between Mount Union and Otterbein, and while this idea might not get rid of all of them, it levels the playing field for postseason competition

[Ralph Turner]

But OTT is competitive in other sports in the OAC. The women play RMC in the first round of Hoops tomorrow.

[Jake Feldman]

But OTT is competitive in other sports in the OAC. The women play RMC in the first round of Hoops tomorrow.

So, what would be a good all-sports equivalent of Mt. Union-Otterbein or St. John Benedict-Hamline in football?

[maripp2002]

But OTT is competitive in other sports in the OAC. The women play RMC in the first round of Hoops tomorrow.

So, what would be a good all-sports equivalent of Mt. Union-Otterbein or St. John Benedict-Hamline in football?

You'd likely want to use the learfield cup standings to figure that out: https://nacda.com/sports/2018/7/17/directorscup-nacda-directorscup-current-scoring-html.aspx, from a quick glance Johns Hopkins at no. 2 and Haverford College at number 129 seems a pretty big divide. Wash U to CWRU also seems pretty large from 3 to 98.

[Jake Feldman]

But OTT is competitive in other sports in the OAC. The women play RMC in the first round of Hoops tomorrow.

So, what would be a good all-sports equivalent of Mt. Union-Otterbein or St. John Benedict-Hamline in football?

You'd likely want to use the learfield cup standings to figure that out: https://nacda.com/sports/2018/7/17/directorscup-nacda-directorscup-current-scoring-html.aspx, from a quick glance Johns Hopkins at no. 2 and Haverford College at number 129 seems a pretty big divide. Wash U to CWRU also seems pretty large from 3 to 98.

Director's Cup standings in terms of average league performance could also work.

[maripp2002]

For the D3 split, I'd do it by the average athletic budget in each league.

The real question is why? Is it someone at the NCAA's job to dictate that things are an even playing field? If you go D3, you go knowing that it's a REALLY large tent, somewhere around 430 schools if I remember correctly. If you want to see teams competing for national championships, or even playoff wins, you're gonna need WAY more than 2 divisions.

The thing is, and I've said this before, the one thing you can always control is your conference. That's always going to be your best bet to partner with like minded institutions - academically, geographically, size, money, etc. If you choose to let a school that's 10 times your size, or has a 100 times your budget in, or is much more or less academically selective, you've made that bed and you lie in it. Win your conference, that's as even as you're going to get.

It's insane to try to balance competition in a division which doesn't have any checks and balances that aren't entirely self-imposed (NESCAC and WIAC roster limits are about the only thing I can think of). If you follow this particular thread closely you know that many, maybe even most, of the schools in d3 need all the help getting students they can. Separating divisions to indicate which sports are "major ones" seems like a good way to alienate anyone interested in sports that aren't that.

I'm not saying it's not an interesting or even noble pursuit, but it's also fruitless because D3 does 0 to police the field and make things equal, and if you start trying to do that, you'll just end up alienating someone, and more or less just go back to the idea of "win your conference".

[Ralph Turner]

maripp2002 is right. Win your conference. Earn your degree.
As for Learfield, both WashU & CWRU are both 1st quartile.

[Jake Feldman]

But OTT is competitive in other sports in the OAC. The women play RMC in the first round of Hoops tomorrow.

So, what would be a good all-sports equivalent of Mt. Union-Otterbein or St. John Benedict-Hamline in football?

You'd likely want to use the learfield cup standings to figure that out: https://nacda.com/sports/2018/7/17/directorscup-nacda-directorscup-current-scoring-html.aspx, from a quick glance Johns Hopkins at no. 2 and Haverford College at number 129 seems a pretty big divide. Wash U to CWRU also seems pretty large from 3 to 98.

Director's Cup standings in terms of average league performance could also work.

That sounds like a great idea. If a school has a majority of core members in the standings, they're in the D3 University division. If not, they're in the College Division
Based on the Fall Director's Cup standings, we'd go with this alignment:
The University Division would include the following 20 conferences with a total of 177 core schools (117 for football):
NESCAC (11 core, 10 football)
UAA (8, does not sponsor football)
WIAC (8)
SCIAC (10 with Azusa Pacific dropping down, 8 football)
Northwest (9, 8 football)
NJAC (10 with SUNY New Paltz joining, 5+2 C2C for football)
NEWMAC (9+3 of the Seven Sisters for women's sports only, 5+2 Skyline and 1 GNAC for football)
NCAC (9 all sports, add CWRU for football)
MAC (both divisions, 18 total, 10 football)
MIAC (12 + St. Catherine for women's sports, 10 for football)
MIAA (8 + St. Mary's (IN) for women's sports)
Liberty League (12 all sports, 5+ Rochester for football)
Landmark (10 all sports, 6 football)
Coast-to-Coast (6 all sports, we'd kick Santa Cruz out and put them in either NWC or SCIAC to lower travel budgets, does not sponsor football)
Centennial (10+Bryn Mawr, 7+Carnegie Mellon for football)
Collegiate Conference of the South (6+Agnes Scott for women, does not sponsor football)
American Rivers (8 for all sports+ Chicago for football)
American Southwest (6 all sports)
USA South (8+2 women's only, merges with CCS for football
College Division would be the remaining 25 conferences containing 252 schools (118 for football).
For most championships, we'd actually use published seeding to set brackets and guarantee the higher seed a home playoff game (2024 Lake Forest football is one of the reasons behind this change).
Sports played by both genders (basketball notably) would allow institutions to host both genders for opening round action.
Championship fields for D3 University Division football would be 32 (17 AQ, 15 at large), other all-sports championships of both Genders 48 (20 AQ, 28 at large), and
Championship fields for D3 College Division would be 28 for football (12 AQ, 16 at large), and 56 for all other sports (24 AQ, 32 at-large)

Either way, I'm trying to give the smaller conferences a chance at the revenue pot that comes from deep tournament runs in football and basketball. I wouldn't break up any of the leagues for this split and consider all 28 championships sponsored by the division. If a school has a program that competes in another division (Seneca-Hobart Men's Lacrosse, Union hockey) they'd still be allowed to play up.

[Ralph Turner]

Jake, thanks for the research and the listing of the sports sponsorships.

(Chuckle, chuckle... except for Azusa Pacific; we believe that they moved up... because 3 > 2, III > II.    )