MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Roundball999]

But it wouldn't be a 10 second rule violation anyway, just a normal backcourt violation, right?  Kzoo had posession of the ball in their frontcourt upon inbounding, then took it into their backcourt when they advanced toward the wrong basket.

[almcguirejr]

But it wouldn't be a 10 second rule violation anyway, just a normal backcourt violation, right?  Kzoo had posession of the ball in their frontcourt upon inbounding, then took it into their backcourt when they advanced toward the wrong basket.

It is not illegal in women's basketball to take the ball from the frontcourt to the backcourt (over and back.)

[oldknight]

Al is correct that college women have no 10 second violation but I'm pretty sure that once the ball advances into the front court, the standard rules pertaining to over and back violations does apply. I did pass on the scenario FDF relates to a friend of mine who officiates high school and some college JV games. He said that once the mistake was detected, the officials acted properly in awarding the basket to Hope and the ball to Kalamazoo. Since the ball went through the Hope hoop, it's their point no matter who put it in. Anyone who has watched much basketball has seen the defensive team put the ball in the wrong basket--usually on a tip-in. Thus once Hope "scored" the ball goes to the opposing team.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

There is indeed a back-court violation in women's basketball. The only major differences in the men's game and the women's is there is no 10-second violation (something they did experiment with at the beginning of last season) and the 35 vs. 30 second shot clock.

[Roundball999]

Oldknight, I agree with you.  I am well aware there is no 10 second rule in NCAA women's basketball, but am quite certain that the over and back rule is the same for men and women under NCAA rules.  I have also seen it called a number of times this season in NCAA womens games.

[Roundball999]

From the "2012 & 2013 NCAA MEN'S AND WOMEN'S BASKETBALL RULES"

Section 10. (Men) 10-Second Violation
The 10-second count shall begin when a player is in control of the ball in his back
court. An inbounds player (and his team) shall not be in continuous control of a
ball that is in his back court for 10 consecutive seconds.

Section 12. Ball in Back Court
Art. 1. A player shall not be the first to touch the ball in his or her back court
(with any part of his or her body, voluntarily or involuntarily) when the ball came
from the front court while the player's team was in team control and the player or
a teammate caused the ball to go into the back court.

[almcguirejr]

There is indeed a back-court violation in women's basketball. The only major differences in the men's game and the women's is there is no 10-second violation (something they did experiment with at the beginning of last season) and the 35 vs. 30 second shot clock.

I stand corrected.  You are right.

[sac]

Albion is only 2 losses away from recording its most losses since 1971 when they went 3-19.  That was the worst record in Albion history.  The next most losses in a single year was 16 in 1964.

Albion is on a 10 game losing streak, its not hard to think this might be their longest since at least 1971 and maybe ever.

http://www.albion.edu/sports/mens-sports/basketball/past-seasons-mainmenu-976

[wiz]

Maroon and Gold: you will see the Calvin story on the local Mlive site at: http://www.mlive.com/sports/grand-rapids/

The direct link to the story is at: http://www.mlive.com/smallcolleges/grandrapids/index.ssf/2013/01/calvin_mens_basketball_perfect.html#incart_river

Nearly all of the local West Michigan colleges and universities now have an agreement with Mlive to post content on days/nights when Mlive does not staff their game events. We also post the same story from our website to the D3hoops.com site as well.

JF

Does anyone have a better karma to post ratio than Jeff Febus?

[oldknight]

Actually OldKnight - an attorney on both sides of the coin (Mlive and Calvin) wrote up the agreement. We'll leave the details out of it.

Unless both sides to the agreement gave informed consent to this inherent conflict of interest, that's a grievable offense, putting the attorney's license at risk. I'll need to see the details.

[Gregory Sager]

Maroon and Gold: you will see the Calvin story on the local Mlive site at: http://www.mlive.com/sports/grand-rapids/

The direct link to the story is at: http://www.mlive.com/smallcolleges/grandrapids/index.ssf/2013/01/calvin_mens_basketball_perfect.html#incart_river

Nearly all of the local West Michigan colleges and universities now have an agreement with Mlive to post content on days/nights when Mlive does not staff their game events. We also post the same story from our website to the D3hoops.com site as well.

JF

Does anyone have a better karma to post ratio than Jeff Febus?

No matter how contentious the Calvin/Hope skirmishes tend to be in here, it's nice that you all recognize the need to give a hard-working SID some love, even if you think he works for the "wrong" school.

[almcguirejr]

Grace Bible College's, Travis Rader, had an impressive dunk against Kuyper Tuesday night.  It made ESPN top ten.

You can see it here.  Scroll down the page to find it.
http://www.gbcol.edu/bbmens/

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Grace Bible College's, Travis Rader, had an impressive dunk against Kuyper Tuesday night.  It made ESPN top ten.

You can see it here.  Scroll down the page to find it.
http://www.gbcol.edu/bbmens/

Funny thing is on ESPN (at least late Wed night) they said the guy dunking was Nick Van Loo - former JV player at Hope, who is now at Grace Bible.  I had assumed that it was actually his brother BJ who is 6'5", since I didn't believe the 6'0" Nick had those kind of ups.  Thanks for posting that so I could see who it actually was

[John Gleich]

.... the Hope/Kazoo womens game last night, the ball went out of bounds under the Kazoo basket and it's Hope ball. 

So, did the refs give the ball to the wrong team (Kazoo), or was it really Kazoo's ball and they just went in the wrong direction?

I was Hope's ball, refs gave it to the wrong team.  I'd give Kzoo credit for pulling a fast one on the refs by stepping into position to receive the inbounds ball from the ref - except they then went in the wrong direction

I've seen similar "fast ones" before... but this doesn't seem to be intentional. Why would Kzoo have scored a bucket for Hope if that were the case? 

When I was in high school playing varsity basketball, the sophomore team would come out in the second half and, if they had possession, would intentionally send the three players who weren't involved with inbounding the basketball to the wrong (far) end of the court. Then the inbounder would pass it in... and if the defense had gone to defend on the wrong end, the point guard would just go score on the (near) undefended basket.

There were a few times when the ref would actually say something... which, of course, blew up the rouse, and more than half the time, the defense actually figured it out correctly (they were, of course, just warming up on the opposite basket), and once it worked a few times, it was scouted out... But it DID work at least 3 times that I can remember... and a 4th time, the PG missed the layup. Oops..!

Side note - strangest thing I think I've ever seen during a basketball game. 

During the 2nd half of the Hope/Kazoo womens game last night, the ball went out of bounds under the Kazoo basket and it's Hope ball.  Time-Out.  Hope subs in 5 new players.  Coming out of the time out, the Kazoo players step in to inbound the ball, the ref gives them the ball, and they inbound, go down the court (the WRONG way), and despite the defense played by the Dutch, get an easy basket (in Hope's basket). 

At this point there is a slight buzz in the crowd, but Hope inbounds the ball and starts down the floor.  Now some of us in the crowd are yelling at the officials that they are going the wrong way.  Hope brings the ball to the front-court and Brittany Berry has the ball for Hope.  She turns to the closest official with a big smile on her face and says something like "That's not our basket". 

Play stops, the officials huddle, then talk to both coaches for several minutes (during which coach Mo has his hands over his face - most likely so we can't see how hard he is laughing).  So they finally make a decision.  The 2 points for the basket is given to Hope, and Kazoo is given the ball out of bounds (just like Hope had made a basket).  So while the final score of the game was Hope 90, Kazoo 38 - Kazoo actually scored 40 points.   

That can't be the right way to handle it.  Either you have to say A) we made a mistake and it should have been Hope's ball to inbound, so let's have a "do over" and act like it didn't happen, or B) you let it play out, and as soon as Kzoo crossed midcourt, it should have been an over-and-back violation, before they had a chance to score the basket for Hope.  Either way, it seems the basket should not have counted for either team.  It would have been high comedy to see Kalamazoo's coach declare the game played under protest.

My initial thought was it was the officials mistake and correctable (I think a "correctable" mistake is supposed to be corrected).  So put the time back where it was, and start over again.  But then everyone was so shocked it happened, and the game was already so out of hand  (Hope was up 56-13 at the time) it really made no difference.  And I'll bet none of the officials had ever faced that situation before.

This is where things get a little sticky... an error is correctable until there is a play that goes into the book. I'm not 100% sure of how the rulebook would deal with this...

But it seems to me that the initial wrongdoing (Kzoo getting the ball) might have become uncorrectable because they scored a basket, albeit on the WRONG basket. However, this might not be the case... if a team cheated and "got away with it" then this should be able to be corrected... so maybe it's the NEXT play that negates the ability to correct it.


Here's a real world example.

In the '03-04 season, in the second round of the NCAA tournament, UWSP was playing at Gustavus Adolphus.

In the second half, in the second half of a very close game, a timeout was called. A few players subbed in and out... but one player didn't get the message. UWSP was up 2, spread the floor, starting to work some clock, when one of the players (who had subbed in), realized that there were 6 men on the court. He cut under the basket and went to the corner by UWSP's bench, then turned around by the water cooler, grabbed a cup of water, and sat down.

A GAC player had been guarding him, and he had turned his head to look at the ball... and when he turned back, the guy he was guarding was no longer on the floor.  GAC quickly regrouped and found players to guard and UWSP ran a play and scored (note: the player who scored had been guarded the whole time, it wasn't like he had been left open and scored because of it).

GAC then quickly inbounded the ball and tried to score quickly (they were running out of time, of course). They missed the shot... and THEN tried to complain to the refs that UWSP had 6 guys on the floor.

BECAUSE GAC made the next shot attempt, it essentially sealed the outcome of the previous play. It's sort of like in football... when you snap the ball on the next play, the outcome of the previous play is locked in. It can't be reviewed or overturned. Ultimately, I don't think it affected the outcome of the game, because the *extra* player wasn't involved in the play that scored, nor was the player who had been left free.

UWSP ended up winning the game by 11 and going on to win the National Championship on a shot with 0:00.02 second left. We also hit two half-court shots going into half time in each of the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 games (the second of which went to OT and was won on shot with 5 second left). Anybody who says that basketball isn't a game of inches is kidding themselves... and I've got a ring to prove it!


I think in the case of the Hope/Kzoo game, Hope could have done a few different things here when they were handed the ball after Kzoo scored. They could have simply inbounded the ball and scored on their PROPER basket (appearing to get two freebie buckets) which then could have sealed the previous play in the books... but the second Hope basket would have been negated because they would have been incorrectly given the ball after the first bucket that Kzoo scored for them. After the second bucket is wiped out, Kzoo gets the ball, going toward the correct basket.

Or they could have done what they did and say that they were going the wrong way... But in this case, I think that the points should have come off of the board, and Hope should have been awarded the basketball under Kzoo's basket. Because a following action never occurred, the previous one was still "reviewable" so to speak and could/should be corrected.

There's a chance that I'm wrong on this... but I don't think so. I think the refs ultimately screwed up twice... obviously, the first time, giving the ball to the wrong team, and then not fixing it correctly when they could have.

In the case of Hope/Kzoo, it didn't really matter.

[scottiedawg]

Albion is only 2 losses away from recording its most losses since 1971 when they went 3-19.  That was the worst record in Albion history.  The next most losses in a single year was 16 in 1964.

Albion is on a 10 game losing streak, its not hard to think this might be their longest since at least 1971 and maybe ever.

http://www.albion.edu/sports/mens-sports/basketball/past-seasons-mainmenu-976

This makes me exceedingly happy. Maybe they'll reconsider thugball.