MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[sac]

I realize this is a board for hoops fans so our perspective may be a bit skewed, but even so I'd have a problem with a D3 hoops coach being paid a salary that was completely out of line with other coaches or even professors at a given school.  In my opinion, it sends the wrong message and is not consistent with D3 values.  Leave the big-bucks coaches for D1, where so many decisions of players, coaches and administration are based on money ahead of education.

I'd be interested to see where Hope ranks on the competitive pay scale of the GLCA schools.   I bet not well.

[Gregory Sager]

The problem is NOT that Hope can't attract top-level interest for this position. It is that Hope notoriously doesn't pay too well (faculty or staff). I remember hearing about more than a few "national" candidates who dropped out 4 years ago when they found out how low the pay was AND they'd have to teach. I'd imagine it to be very similar this time.

If the rumors are true (of the 2 names most commonly floated around) - yes, neither one of them has "head coaching at the college level" experience, but either one of them would be a good choice/fit to lead the program in a new direction. Hope will be just fine if either is selected.

If the difference I heard between one candidates current pay and Hope was correct, Hope should be deeply embarrassed.

I have a friend who teaches at a CCIW school who claims that his salary is half the head coach's. I haven't been able to verify this, but if it's true then that school ought to be deeply embarrassed that its basketball coach is making more than, never mind twice, a full professor.

I find this deeply alarming if it's true, because I can tell you that the salary difference between the head basketball coach and a full professor at my alma mater is dramatically opposed to what your friend claims about his CCIW school.

Why would you be alarmed when it may simply be a matter of supply and demand working as it should.

This is why:

I realize this is a board for hoops fans so our perspective may be a bit skewed, but even so I'd have a problem with a D3 hoops coach being paid a salary that was completely out of line with other coaches or even professors at a given school.  In my opinion, it sends the wrong message and is not consistent with D3 values.  Leave the big-bucks coaches for D1, where so many decisions of players, coaches and administration are based on money ahead of education.

Roundball gets it.

This would tell me the supply of (quality) coaches is less than for PHD. tenure track candidates in most fields.

Not everything comes down to supply and demand. There are other determinants of relative value, and for a D3 school -- where men's basketball gate receipts, TV contracts, and merchandising are not financial drivers of the institution -- the value placed upon a classroom education should take primacy.

Would you have a problem if an engineering prof. makes more than a eng. lit. prof where the same market factors playout?

No, because those are both teaching positions. As I said, classroom education should be the priority over athletics at a D3 school.

One has to ask if the performance of your schools teams in the recent past is directly tied to compensation?

If one has to ask that, one has to accept the answer "no".

I wouldn't have a problem if one CCIW school or even all of them wanted to give 7 figure contracts to the head coach.

I would, because it would tell me that my alma mater's priorities have not only gone badly awry, they've become totally unrealistic as well. Schools with endowments as modest as North Park's, for which the only serious income derived from athletics is via the tuition of student-athletes, have no business giving a million-dollar salary to a head coach.

I suspect the pressure for any coach making the big bucks  to put a winning, quality team on the floor is considerably greater than at those schools who found a warm body to take their poor paying position.

Make sure you put a nice hat on that straw man you've built. Or do you really think that college basketball is a binary world where all head coaches are either "making the big bucks to put a winning, quality team on the floor" or "a warm body to take their poor-paying position"?

Each school has to decide where to spend the $$ they have available.  Some may choose differently than others, but in each case the school has to live with the results that decision yields.

Nobody's arguing that. But this is D3, and the size of the pie for most D3 schools is not that large -- and it's sliced differently than it's sliced in D1, anyway.

[Gregory Sager]

Other MIAA fan bases are gonna have to step it up - Hope can't do it all.

Hope easily won the attendance title for the 22nd consecutive season, by 658 pg over Wooster, but the MIAA's 12-year reign for conferences came crashing down, as the CCIW beat them by a healthy margin, 744 to 702, despite IWU being the conference leader at a 'mere' 1333 (4th in D3, to Hope's 2,459).  Subtract Hope from the MIAA total and IWU from the CCIW total, and the CCIW would be 660 for the other seven, the MIAA would be 395 for the others.  And attendance at the Hope @ Calvin game was 4800 - even that 395 drops precipitously if you remove that one game. 

Adrian, Albion, Alma, Kalamazoo, Olivet, Trine and even Calvin (when playing anyone other than Hope) have got to step up their promotion!

Much ado about nothing, Chuck. Men's basketball attendance has been going down for years, both in the MIAA and the CCIW. This is nothing to brag about.

[pointlem]

Other MIAA fan bases are gonna have to step it up - Hope can't do it all.

Hope easily won the attendance title for the 22nd consecutive season, by 658 pg over Wooster, but the MIAA's 12-year reign for conferences came crashing down, as the CCIW beat them by a healthy margin, 744 to 702, despite IWU being the conference leader at a 'mere' 1333 (4th in D3, to Hope's 2,459).  Subtract Hope from the MIAA total and IWU from the CCIW total, and the CCIW would be 660 for the other seven, the MIAA would be 395 for the others.  And attendance at the Hope @ Calvin game was 4800 - even that 395 drops precipitously if you remove that one game. 

Adrian, Albion, Alma, Kalamazoo, Olivet, Trine and even Calvin (when playing anyone other than Hope) have got to step up their promotion!

Much ado about nothing, Chuck. Men's basketball attendance has been going down for years, both in the MIAA and the CCIW. This is nothing to brag about.

I wonder if video streaming games--which most of us welcome, I suspect--has contributed to declining DIII attendance.  If Hope's game v. Kalamazoo is available online, am I less likely to take the time to drive to Kazoo on a winter night? (I think yes, but it may be a very small factor that is greatly outweighed by the game's availability to fans who cannot attend.)
Expecting news on the Hope coaching decision soon . . . though HoopDreams may have more info on how close a decision is.

[realist]

I realize this is a board for hoops fans so our perspective may be a bit skewed, but even so I'd have a problem with a D3 hoops coach being paid a salary that was completely out of line with other coaches or even professors at a given school.  In my opinion, it sends the wrong message and is not consistent with D3 values.  Leave the big-bucks coaches for D1, where so many decisions of players, coaches and administration are based on money ahead of education.

Can you furnish me with a list of these "D3 values" you mention above?  I have read many of the D3 rules, and quidelines, and no where do I find it stated that winning is bad, coaches can't be paid more than professors etc. etc. etc.  Really the assumption is more do what you can or want to have winning teams as long as it it done according to the rules.   
Perhaps, to us, D3 fans, we see some issues as "sacred",  however this repeatedly proves to be naive.  D3 is subject to the laws of supply and demand just like any other organization in our society and economy.  Coaches leave D3 every year for better opportunities at NAIA, D2, and D1 schools (not to mention selling insurance, real estate, or a host of other career opportunities).  Why do they do this?  They do it for greater pay, greater challenge, and the realization that many D3 schools put teams on the floor that are sub par coached by ill prepared individuals. 
Seriously what joy (moral superiority) is there in beating a team like Finlandia?
Don't get me wrong I am a fan, and supporter of D3 athletics.  I just prefer to go into this discussion with my eyes open.  D3 has no more claim to some supposed moral high ground than do most D2 or D1 schools.  Sadly many times one reads posts on the various D3 boards in the various sports that makes the assumption that D3 is something that it isn't.  D3 athletics are a business proposition.  Each school decides what to pay it's coaches, and employes what they want, and what they realize they need to to get the type people/results they want.  If one doesn't want to pay a competitive price for a top notch coach than you get the guy just out of school or several years as a jv coach that has the nerve to stricke off on his own, but really doesn't qualify as either trained or experienced. 
Ask yourself if there is anything morally superior about a top rate school expecting it's coaches to do more for less because, "we are xyz school", and these are what our values are?  I am not saying that any school should change it's values.  What I am saying is quite a few schools need to stop kidding themselves that they are something they aren't. 
 
My opinions are mine, and mine alone like them or hate them they serve me well.  Please form your own opinions.   I just ask that you do that with your eyes open, and with the understanding that D3 sports are what they are.  Don't make D3 sports into something they aren't, and than start judging others because they don't meet your standards which exceed D3 standards.
If one CCIW school wants to pay a coach twice what it pays profs. what harm is that to you?  If some MIAA school decides not to pay a competitive wage to it's head coach what harm is that to you if they find somone to take the job?

[arena]

I realize this is a board for hoops fans so our perspective may be a bit skewed, but even so I'd have a problem with a D3 hoops coach being paid a salary that was completely out of line with other coaches or even professors at a given school.  In my opinion, it sends the wrong message and is not consistent with D3 values.  Leave the big-bucks coaches for D1, where so many decisions of players, coaches and administration are based on money ahead of education.

Can you furnish me with a list of these "D3 values" you mention above?  I have read many of the D3 rules, and quidelines, and no where do I find it stated that winning is bad, coaches can't be paid more than professors etc. etc. etc.  Really the assumption is more do what you can or want to have winning teams as long as it it done according to the rules.   
Perhaps, to us, D3 fans, we see some issues as "sacred",  however this repeatedly proves to be naive.  D3 is subject to the laws of supply and demand just like any other organization in our society and economy.  Coaches leave D3 every year for better opportunities at NAIA, D2, and D1 schools (not to mention selling insurance, real estate, or a host of other career opportunities).  Why do they do this?  They do it for greater pay, greater challenge, and the realization that many D3 schools put teams on the floor that are sub par coached by ill prepared individuals. 
Seriously what joy (moral superiority) is there in beating a team like Finlandia?
Don't get me wrong I am a fan, and supporter of D3 athletics.  I just prefer to go into this discussion with my eyes open.  D3 has no more claim to some supposed moral high ground than do most D2 or D1 schools.  Sadly many times one reads posts on the various D3 boards in the various sports that makes the assumption that D3 is something that it isn't.  D3 athletics are a business proposition.  Each school decides what to pay it's coaches, and employes what they want, and what they realize they need to to get the type people/results they want.  If one doesn't want to pay a competitive price for a top notch coach than you get the guy just out of school or several years as a jv coach that has the nerve to stricke off on his own, but really doesn't qualify as either trained or experienced. 
Ask yourself if there is anything morally superior about a top rate school expecting it's coaches to do more for less because, "we are xyz school", and these are what our values are?  I am not saying that any school should change it's values.  What I am saying is quite a few schools need to stop kidding themselves that they are something they aren't. 
 
My opinions are mine, and mine alone like them or hate them they serve me well.  Please form your own opinions.   I just ask that you do that with your eyes open, and with the understanding that D3 sports are what they are.  Don't make D3 sports into something they aren't, and than start judging others because they don't meet your standards which exceed D3 standards.
If one CCIW school wants to pay a coach twice what it pays profs. what harm is that to you?  If some MIAA school decides not to pay a competitive wage to it's head coach what harm is that to you fi they find somone to take the job?

Well said.

[hoopdreams]

Sorry, I likely cannot help...its been posted repeatedly that I know nothing, even "nothing about basketball"...although I can report that it is one person's to lose...if he turns it down, due to a pay cut of a high school teacher/coach or a variety of other reasons~ uprooting family, immense pressure/support from community, etc....and this may or may not be speculation   Commence Karma slaying...............NOW,  It IS rumor that GVW will join staff as a part time assistant

[realist]

GS  Your answer was exactly what I expected, and like any other opinion it doesn' t mean I have to accept it.

[sac]

Sorry, I likely cannot help...its been posted repeatedly that I know nothing, even "nothing about basketball"...although I can report that it is one person's to lose...if he turns it down, due to a pay cut of a high school teacher/coach or a variety of other reasons~ uprooting family, immense pressure/support from community, etc....and this may or may not be speculation   Commence Karma slaying...............NOW,  It IS rumor that GVW will join staff as a part time assistant

So Popovich isn't coming and bringing Dwayne Wade and LeBron as assistants?

[Roundball999]

I realize this is a board for hoops fans so our perspective may be a bit skewed, but even so I'd have a problem with a D3 hoops coach being paid a salary that was completely out of line with other coaches or even professors at a given school.  In my opinion, it sends the wrong message and is not consistent with D3 values.  Leave the big-bucks coaches for D1, where so many decisions of players, coaches and administration are based on money ahead of education.

Can you furnish me with a list of these "D3 values" you mention above?  I have read many of the D3 rules, and quidelines, and no where do I find it stated that winning is bad, coaches can't be paid more than professors etc. etc. etc.  Really the assumption is more do what you can or want to have winning teams as long as it it done according to the rules.   
Perhaps, to us, D3 fans, we see some issues as "sacred",  however this repeatedly proves to be naive.  D3 is subject to the laws of supply and demand just like any other organization in our society and economy.  Coaches leave D3 every year for better opportunities at NAIA, D2, and D1 schools (not to mention selling insurance, real estate, or a host of other career opportunities).  Why do they do this?  They do it for greater pay, greater challenge, and the realization that many D3 schools put teams on the floor that are sub par coached by ill prepared individuals. 
Seriously what joy (moral superiority) is there in beating a team like Finlandia?
Don't get me wrong I am a fan, and supporter of D3 athletics.  I just prefer to go into this discussion with my eyes open.  D3 has no more claim to some supposed moral high ground than do most D2 or D1 schools.  Sadly many times one reads posts on the various D3 boards in the various sports that makes the assumption that D3 is something that it isn't.  D3 athletics are a business proposition.  Each school decides what to pay it's coaches, and employes what they want, and what they realize they need to to get the type people/results they want.  If one doesn't want to pay a competitive price for a top notch coach than you get the guy just out of school or several years as a jv coach that has the nerve to stricke off on his own, but really doesn't qualify as either trained or experienced. 
Ask yourself if there is anything morally superior about a top rate school expecting it's coaches to do more for less because, "we are xyz school", and these are what our values are?  I am not saying that any school should change it's values.  What I am saying is quite a few schools need to stop kidding themselves that they are something they aren't. 
 
My opinions are mine, and mine alone like them or hate them they serve me well.  Please form your own opinions.   I just ask that you do that with your eyes open, and with the understanding that D3 sports are what they are.  Don't make D3 sports into something they aren't, and than start judging others because they don't meet your standards which exceed D3 standards.
If one CCIW school wants to pay a coach twice what it pays profs. what harm is that to you?  If some MIAA school decides not to pay a competitive wage to it's head coach what harm is that to you if they find somone to take the job?

Here you go:  http://www.ncaa.org/governance/division-iii-philosophy-statement

Especially b, g, h and a few of the others.  Nothing to do with a moral high ground, not saying its better than D1 or D2 - just different.

[ziggy]

I realize this is a board for hoops fans so our perspective may be a bit skewed, but even so I'd have a problem with a D3 hoops coach being paid a salary that was completely out of line with other coaches or even professors at a given school.  In my opinion, it sends the wrong message and is not consistent with D3 values.  Leave the big-bucks coaches for D1, where so many decisions of players, coaches and administration are based on money ahead of education.

What if someone wants to endow the coaching postition?

[Roundball999]

I realize this is a board for hoops fans so our perspective may be a bit skewed, but even so I'd have a problem with a D3 hoops coach being paid a salary that was completely out of line with other coaches or even professors at a given school.  In my opinion, it sends the wrong message and is not consistent with D3 values.  Leave the big-bucks coaches for D1, where so many decisions of players, coaches and administration are based on money ahead of education.

What if someone wants to endow the coaching postition?

That'd be great in my opinion.  Development office maybe has some influence but donors are generally going to choose what they want to support.  An endowment of a coaching position would mean those coaching salary dollars could be used elsewhere to support the college's mission.

[realist]

I realize this is a board for hoops fans so our perspective may be a bit skewed, but even so I'd have a problem with a D3 hoops coach being paid a salary that was completely out of line with other coaches or even professors at a given school.  In my opinion, it sends the wrong message and is not consistent with D3 values.  Leave the big-bucks coaches for D1, where so many decisions of players, coaches and administration are based on money ahead of education.

What if someone wants to endow the coaching postition?

That'd be great in my opinion.  Development office maybe has some influence but donors are generally going to choose what they want to support.  An endowment of a coaching position would mean those coaching salary dollars could be used elsewhere to support the college's mission.

So you feel it would be okay for some high roller Hope donor to set up an endowment to pay the new Hope coach any amount the donor chooses while claiming the school doing that on it's own would somehow violate or compromise the D3 philosophical guidelines?

[HOPEful]

I realize this is a board for hoops fans so our perspective may be a bit skewed, but even so I'd have a problem with a D3 hoops coach being paid a salary that was completely out of line with other coaches or even professors at a given school.  In my opinion, it sends the wrong message and is not consistent with D3 values.  Leave the big-bucks coaches for D1, where so many decisions of players, coaches and administration are based on money ahead of education.

What if someone wants to endow the coaching postition?

That'd be great in my opinion.  Development office maybe has some influence but donors are generally going to choose what they want to support.  An endowment of a coaching position would mean those coaching salary dollars could be used elsewhere to support the college's mission.

So you feel it would be okay for some high roller Hope donor to set up an endowment to pay the new Hope coach any amount the donor chooses while claiming the school doing that on it's own would somehow violate or compromise the D3 philosophical guidelines?

Hypothetical endowments and the "sweet-spot" in regards to coach vs. professor salaries?!

I've never understood why West Michiganders like to turn amoral topics into theological/philosophical/moral debates. I'm going to have to side with Realist on this one, seems like simple supply and demand to me...

[Stinger]

I realize this is a board for hoops fans so our perspective may be a bit skewed, but even so I'd have a problem with a D3 hoops coach being paid a salary that was completely out of line with other coaches or even professors at a given school.  In my opinion, it sends the wrong message and is not consistent with D3 values.  Leave the big-bucks coaches for D1, where so many decisions of players, coaches and administration are based on money ahead of education.

What if someone wants to endow the coaching postition?

That'd be great in my opinion.  Development office maybe has some influence but donors are generally going to choose what they want to support.  An endowment of a coaching position would mean those coaching salary dollars could be used elsewhere to support the college's mission.

So you feel it would be okay for some high roller Hope donor to set up an endowment to pay the new Hope coach any amount the donor chooses while claiming the school doing that on it's own would somehow violate or compromise the D3 philosophical guidelines?

It wouldn't be "any amount the donor chooses".  The donor doesn't dictate a coach's salary. Endowment spend rates are typically 4-5%.  Small colleges would love to haven an endowed fund to help pay their salaries and other athletic operating costs. Just as they have endowed professorships (at K, $1-2MM to start one)

There is an endowment for women's athletics at Kzoo and I'm pretty sure there's an endowed fund for Men's basketball at Albion.  It's not uncommon, nor immoral.