FB: Liberty League

[Oline89]

End of the season, time for an unpopular take.  Is there any other league in the country where the season ends with teams playing an OOC game?  I truly understand the popularity, history and nostalgia to Cortica, however, wouldn't it make sense if IC and Cortland were in the same league?  The game would actually have relevance to the other 7 teams in each league (LL/E8). 

[UfanBill]

That doesn't mean I think it's a good idea, long-term, watering down the LL brand with the inclusion of Hilbert. We now have not one, but two associate members in football, and both are, to put it mildly, bottom feeders - or to be more scientific, both are bottom 30 (out of 240) programs. That only significantly weakens the league, and hurts the standing of each and every team in the league.

There's a certain level of irony in people complaining about LL teams missing the playoff as an at-large when the conference has shown, repeatedly, an inability to beat playoff caliber teams — and even fringy non playoff teams.

Replacing an 0-10 Hilbert with some 6-4/5-5 type team may get the job done in terms of fooling the computers and earning a bid. But it's not changing my mind about the quality of the league.

And if Ithaca/Union/RPI can't beat Utica, Cortland, or Susquehanna, why should we think replacing Hilbert with, Grove City or W&J is going to result in a win?

Also, to continue with a point I made earlier.

Records from 2013-2016:

St. Lawrence - 32-9
Buffalo State - 25-17
Ithaca - 25-18
Union - 8-32

Heck, even RPI, who isn't included here, went through a stretch where they had a different head coach every 6 weeks*

*Okay, it wasn't that bad, but still
 
Treating these "bottom feeders" like they're a permanent underclass is really baffling to me.

OK IC798891 just who are you referring to that thinks the Liberty League should get an at-large bid this season? Nobody on this board that I'm aware of...AND as for you referencing overall records from 2013-2016 I'm kinda baffled as to your point. Especially since Ithaca and Buffalo St. weren't even in the Liberty League in those years. If I suspect you're trying to point out that teams at this level have up and down seasons that go in cycles I would agree with that...As for why Cortland lost it's opener to Grove City? How about that they didn't have Zac Boyes taking snaps...Utica beating up on Washington and Jefferson and RPI? How about a different QB scenario. D1 transfer Tyler Szalkowski came from nowhere and lit it up for the Pioneers. Susquehanna? Need I remind you last year they won 3 playoff games. They're really good...For the longest time some of us here lamented that the LL should schedule tougher OOC games. Grove City, Johns Hopkins, Susquehanna, Endicott, Springfield, the NJAC are exactly where we should be but again a reminder, with the present scheduling agreement there's only room for one such game and understandably St. Lawrence/Norwich, RPI/WPI and even Ithaca/Cortland are long time rivalry trophy games that are going nowhere. 

Also Oline89...Ithaca and Cortland in the same league? For 2 years 2015 an 2016 both were members of the E8 before Ithaca moved to the Liberty League in 2017.
 

[ICGrad]

Treating these "bottom feeders" like they're a permanent underclass is really baffling to me.

I get zero enjoyment in watching Ithaca beat up on teams to the tune of 65-3.

If Hilbert were an LL team, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Just don't understand the sense in adding a school as an "associate" in football when that team doesn't come close to matching the competitive footprint of the rest of the league - especially when we already have an associate that also doesn't match the competitive footprint.

If we didn't already have Buff State, who hasn't fielded a competitive team since before Covid, I would have far less of a problem with Hilbert.

Postseason hopes aside, I'd like to see the LL be as competitive as possible, top to bottom. Hell, I'd love to St Lawrence to turn the corner a bit and compete for titles (as Rochester has done this season for example...maybe not competing for titles yet, but certainly competing). It's good for the league when there are more strong teams.

Not sure why you see that as such a bad thing, but guess we'll agree to disagree.

[ICGrad]

End of the season, time for an unpopular take.  Is there any other league in the country where the season ends with teams playing an OOC game?  I truly understand the popularity, history and nostalgia to Cortica, however, wouldn't it make sense if IC and Cortland were in the same league?  The game would actually have relevance to the other 7 teams in each league (LL/E8). 

Georgia (SEC) ends their season vs. Georgia Tech (ACC) every year. (Actually, Georgia's last two games this season are non-conference games)

Florida (SEC) ends their season vs. Florida State (ACC).

[ICGrad]

End of the season, time for an unpopular take.  Is there any other league in the country where the season ends with teams playing an OOC game?  I truly understand the popularity, history and nostalgia to Cortica, however, wouldn't it make sense if IC and Cortland were in the same league?  The game would actually have relevance to the other 7 teams in each league (LL/E8). 

Georgia (SEC) ends their season vs. Georgia Tech (ACC) every year. (Actually, Georgia's last two games this season are non-conference games)

Florida (SEC) ends their season vs. Florida State (ACC).

Oh, and Clemson plays South Carolina; Louisville plays Kentucky.

Interestingly, all of these are currently ACC/SEC games, but they didn't used to be. Florida State and Louisville only (relatively) recently joined the ACC.

I'm sure there are others; these are the ones that jumped to mind immediately.

[unionpalooza]

That doesn't mean I think it's a good idea, long-term, watering down the LL brand with the inclusion of Hilbert. We now have not one, but two associate members in football, and both are, to put it mildly, bottom feeders - or to be more scientific, both are bottom 30 (out of 240) programs. That only significantly weakens the league, and hurts the standing of each and every team in the league.

There's a certain level of irony in people complaining about LL teams missing the playoff as an at-large when the conference has shown, repeatedly, an inability to beat playoff caliber teams — and even fringy non playoff teams.

Replacing an 0-10 Hilbert with some 6-4/5-5 type team may get the job done in terms of fooling the computers and earning a bid. But it's not changing my mind about the quality of the league.

And if Ithaca/Union/RPI can't beat Utica, Cortland, or Susquehanna, why should we think replacing Hilbert with, Grove City or W&J is going to result in a win?

Also, to continue with a point I made earlier.

Records from 2013-2016:

St. Lawrence - 32-9
Buffalo State - 25-17
Ithaca - 25-18
Union - 8-32

Heck, even RPI, who isn't included here, went through a stretch where they had a different head coach every 6 weeks*

*Okay, it wasn't that bad, but still
 
Treating these "bottom feeders" like they're a permanent underclass is really baffling to me.

Yeah, this is a dumb take.  You took the worst four-year run in modern history of a team that was a founding member of the league and its predecessor going back to 1995, during which three decades it has had five losing seasons.  Buff St. is a football-only member that has nothing institutionally in common with the rest of the LL and has won seven games in its six years in the league.  Hilbert is a football-only member that has nothing institutionally in common with the rest of the LL and has won no games in its first four years. Neither school has recently demonstrated an institutional willingness to invest anything remotely comparable to the resources other LL teams invest in their program. They are both 90 minutes to the west of the farthest edge of the league's geographic footprint. Neither are needed for the LL to earn an AQ.

To put this another way, can you think of a single compelling reason that Buff State or Hilbert SHOULD be in the LL?

[Oline89]

End of the season, time for an unpopular take.  Is there any other league in the country where the season ends with teams playing an OOC game?  I truly understand the popularity, history and nostalgia to Cortica, however, wouldn't it make sense if IC and Cortland were in the same league?  The game would actually have relevance to the other 7 teams in each league (LL/E8). 

Georgia (SEC) ends their season vs. Georgia Tech (ACC) every year. (Actually, Georgia's last two games this season are non-conference games)

Florida (SEC) ends their season vs. Florida State (ACC).

Oh, and Clemson plays South Carolina; Louisville plays Kentucky.

Interestingly, all of these are currently ACC/SEC games, but they didn't used to be. Florida State and Louisville only (relatively) recently joined the ACC.

I'm sure there are others; these are the ones that jumped to mind immediately.

Excellent examples, thanks!

[Pat Coleman]

End of the season, time for an unpopular take.  Is there any other league in the country where the season ends with teams playing an OOC game?  I truly understand the popularity, history and nostalgia to Cortica, however, wouldn't it make sense if IC and Cortland were in the same league?  The game would actually have relevance to the other 7 teams in each league (LL/E8). 

Georgia (SEC) ends their season vs. Georgia Tech (ACC) every year. (Actually, Georgia's last two games this season are non-conference games)

Florida (SEC) ends their season vs. Florida State (ACC).

Oh, and Clemson plays South Carolina; Louisville plays Kentucky.

Interestingly, all of these are currently ACC/SEC games, but they didn't used to be. Florida State and Louisville only (relatively) recently joined the ACC.

I'm sure there are others; these are the ones that jumped to mind immediately.

Excellent examples, thanks!

For many years, the Monon Bell game between DePauw and Wabash was a non-conference game.

[ICGrad]

For many years, the Monon Bell game between DePauw and Wabash was a non-conference game.

Nice!

I live in Indianapolis now; the Cortaca of the Midwest!

[Bartman]

The record for the LL in the NCAA Playoffs n the last  30 years 

Sat., Nov. 18, 1995   Union 24, Plymouth State 7   Plymouth
Sat., Nov. 25, 1995   Rowan 38, Union 7   Glassboro
Sat., Nov. 20, 1999   Rowan 29, RPI 10   Troy
Sat., Nov. 18, 2000   Hobart 25, Bridgewater State 0   Geneva
Sat., Nov. 18, 2000   Widener 33, Union 26   Schenectady
Sat., Nov. 25, 2000   Widener 40, Hobart 14   Chester
Sat., Nov. 24, 2001   Ithaca 27, RPI 10   Troy
Sat., Nov. 23, 2002   John Carroll 27, Hobart 7   Geneva
Sat., Nov. 22, 2003   RPI 34, Curry 20   Troy
Sat., Nov. 29, 2003   RPI 40, Springfield 34   Springfield
Sat., Dec. 6, 2003   RPI 21, Ithaca 16   Troy
Sat., Dec. 13, 2003   St. John's 38, RPI 10   Collegeville
Sat., Nov. 20, 2004   Hobart 35, Curry 16   Geneva
Sat., Nov. 27, 2004   Rowan 45, Hobart 14   Glassboro
Sat., Nov. 19, 2005   Hobart 23, Cortland 22   Geneva
Sat., Nov. 19, 2005   Union 55, Ithaca 41   Schenectady
Sat., Nov. 26, 2005   Delaware Valley 21, Hobart 14   Doylestown
Sat., Nov. 26, 2005   Rowan 28, Union 24   Schenectady
Sat., Nov. 18, 2006   Rowan 20, #Hobart 18   Glassboro
Sat., Nov. 18, 2006   St. John Fisher 49, Union 21   Pittsford
Sat., Nov. 17, 2007   College of New Jersey 17, RPI 14   Troy
Sat., Nov. 17, 2007   St. John Fisher 24, #Hobart 7   Pittsford
Sat., Nov. 22, 2008   Hobart 33, Lycoming 15   Geneva
Sat., Nov. 29, 2008   Mount Union 42, Hobart 7   Alliance
Sat., Nov. 21, 2009   Delaware Valley 66, Susquehanna 7   Doylestown
Sat., Nov. 20, 2010   Mount Union 49, St. Lawrence 0   Alliance
Sat., Nov. 19, 2011   Wesley 35, Hobart 28   Dover
Sat., Nov. 17, 2012   Hobart 38, Washington and Lee 20   Geneva
Sat., Nov. 24, 2012   Hobart 35, Wittenberg 10   Geneva
Sat., Dec. 1, 2012   St. Thomas 47, Hobart 7   St. Paul
Sat., Nov. 23, 2013   Hobart 34, Gallaudet 7   Geneva
Sat., Nov. 30, 2013   St. John Fisher 27, Hobart 6   Geneva
Sat., Nov. 22, 2014   Hobart 22, Ithaca 15   Geneva
Sat., Nov. 29, 2014   Hobart 24, Johns Hopkins 21   Geneva
Sat., Dec. 6, 2014   Wesley 41, Hobart 13   Dover
Sat., Nov. 21, 2015   Mount Union 55, St. Lawrence 23   Alliance
Sat., Nov. 19, 2016   Mount Union 38, Hobart 21   Geneva
Sat., Nov. 18, 2017   Wesley 45, RPI 27   Dover
Sat., Nov. 17, 2018   RPI 38, Husson 14   Troy
Sat., Nov. 24, 2018   RPI 21, Brockport 13   Brockport
Sat., Dec. 1, 2018   Johns Hopkins 37, RPI 14   Baltimore
Sat., Nov. 23, 2019   Union 24, Case Western Reserve 21   Schenectady
Sat., Nov. 30, 2019   Salisbury 62, Union 41   Salisbury
Sat., Nov. 20, 2021   RPI 20, Endicott 14   Beverly
Sat., Nov. 27, 2021   RPI 21, Cortland 14   Cortland
Sat., Dec. 4, 2021   North Central 55, RPI 6   Naperville
Sat., Nov. 19, 2022   Ithaca 63, Massachusetts-Dartmouth 20   Ithaca
Sat., Nov. 26, 2022   Ithaca 31, Springfield 20   Ithaca
Sat., Dec. 3, 2022   North Central 48, Ithaca 7   Naperville
Sat., Nov. 18, 2023   Ithaca 21, Springfield 7   Springfield
Sat., Nov. 18, 2023   Union 24, Delaware Valley 16   Doylestown
Sat., Nov. 25, 2023   Johns Hopkins 39, Union 17   Baltimore
Sat., Nov. 25, 2023   Randolph-Macon 46, Ithaca 0   Ashland
Sat., Nov. 30, 2024   Susquehanna 42, Hobart 35   Selinsgrove

An overall LL record of 23-31 which is respectable but not great( Ithaca record counted as a LL team when they entered the LL, otherwise as a non-LL team). Just did this for grins and to remember some great games (and not so great) the LL has given us. Which one do you think was the best NCAA win by a LL team during this period?

[unionpalooza]

It's funny, no game really stands out, though I think the best overall playoff run has got to be 2003 RPI.  Only LL team to every reach the national semis, I think (at least during the LL era).  The middle years are interesting - four games against Mt. Union in eight years, three of them first round matchups.

[Bartman]

Last weekend picks:

RPI      27.      Union      17  This could easily be a Union win if Patch has a great game, however Isernia will have a plan for containment. How can you have a "SHOES"  game without Dutchmen??

Ithaca.  21.    Cortland.  24.  A Surprisingly close CORTACA Jug game as both teams invite many prospects to play at Yankee Stadium next year.

Hobart.  45.    Buffalo St. 14    Hobart continues to improve but too late in the season. Seniors and Parents acknowledged for their contributions.

Rochester 31.    SLU.        17.  The Yellowjackets continue the year-year improvement

Hilbert.  14.    Hartwick.  35.  The battle of Hawks

Good luck to everyone and to the eventual LL Champion in the Playoffs.

[Ice Bear]

It's funny, no game really stands out, though I think the best overall playoff run has got to be 2003 RPI.  Only LL team to every reach the national semis, I think (at least during the LL era).  The middle years are interesting - four games against Mt. Union in eight years, three of them first round matchups.

I agree completely. The RPI run was awesome!

[Bartman]

It's funny, no game really stands out, though I think the best overall playoff run has got to be 2003 RPI.  Only LL team to every reach the national semis, I think (at least during the LL era).  The middle years are interesting - four games against Mt. Union in eight years, three of them first round matchups.

Agree that the RPI 2003 team gets the nod for best run. As far as Mount Union, it was strange that Hobart was "rated' higher than the Mount in 2016 and actually had a home game on a super windy day. Hobart tied the game late in the third quarter with Sweeney at QB, but then Mount Union did what it always does, win.

[Machiavelli]

Here are my 2 favorites:

Sat., Nov. 29, 2003  RPI 40, Springfield 34  Springfield
I was at this game in Springfield. Springfield was a legit national contender that year. Their line was humongous and the Triple Option was pretty much unstoppable. RPI got out to a quick lead and it was cold and snowy. Springfield could not throw the ball and they basically ran themselves out of time because they couldn't stop the clock. Then RPI went onto the Final 4, so that was a big one.

Sat., Nov. 24, 2018  RPI 21, Brockport 13  Brockport
This was the Brockport team with Joe G. that was supposed to potentially make it very deep. They were a lot like the National Champ Cortland team. RPI had gotten crushed a few weeks earlier by Union and they shocked a lot of us with this game. It was another good run for RPI in the postseason.

Anyway, yes, those are homer picks, but those are my big 2.