FB: Liberty League

[IC798891]

Yeah, this is a dumb take.  You took the worst four-year run in modern history of a team that was a founding member of the league and its predecessor going back to 1995, during which three decades it has had five losing seasons.  Buff St. is a football-only member that has nothing institutionally in common with the rest of the LL and has won seven games in its six years in the league.  Hilbert is a football-only member that has nothing institutionally in common with the rest of the LL and has won no games in its first four years. Neither school has recently demonstrated an institutional willingness to invest anything remotely comparable to the resources other LL teams invest in their program. They are both 90 minutes to the west of the farthest edge of the league's geographic footprint. Neither are needed for the LL to earn an AQ.

To put this another way, can you think of a single compelling reason that Buff State or Hilbert SHOULD be in the LL?

You guys (all of you complaining about this) don't want to boot Buffalo State because they're not a "good fit" for the LL and they're an outlier geographically.

You want to boot them because they're bad and it's easier to blame Buffalo State being bad for the lack of Pool C bids than it is to blame your own teams for losing winnable out of conference games.

Okay, so what happens if Union, or Ithaca, or RPI start being lousy and Buffalo State gets better? How bad is bad enough? How long does it have to last?

I know we're all off scoffing at that idea because uh...well... come on bro, but no one's immune to being terrible, and no one is prohibited from hiring the right coach and fixing their program.

[Machiavelli]

I know nothing is ever apples to apples, but let's take Endicott as an example. Endicott's first official season was 2003. They didn't play beasts by any means, but they won 4 games that year. By 2010 they had an NCAA appearance. This is an institution committed to their football program.

Hilbert is in their 4th season. They are 0-34 being outscored 1678-272. They've been shut out 10 times in 34 games and have scored less than 10 points in 24 of them. This, to me, shows ZERO sign of an institutional commitment to the football program.

Buffalo State was pretty good like 25+ years ago and have had 1 or 2 decent seasons since. They have 8 wins over their last 7 seasons and have scored 10 or less 36 times in that span. Once again, this shows pretty much ZERO commitment to their football program.

St. Lawrence and Rochester have had a few good seasons, and can compete any year, but have traditionally looked like the doormats of the LL. For us to look at those 2 programs VERY favorably due to how freaking bad Buff St and Hilbert are is nothing short of crazy.

As far as I'm concerned, I'd rather see the league compete in 70%+ of league games. Instead, we're at 50% with the 2 'football only' teams. It's just not good football and it's not good for the league. I'd much rather have 1 or 2 of the E8 bottom feeders, because at least they can be a tiny bit competitive in some years.

[Ice Bear]

In honor of the Shoes game here is my favorite Union win and most devastating Union loss at the hands of those really smart engineering types in Troy.

Best Win:
11/10/2018: After an 0-10 season just 3 seasons previous and a 6 game losing streak to the Engineers The Dutchmen went to Troy and lit up the #14 ranked Engineers. For me, a fan and watcher of Union College football since the year 1982, it was this game that finally renewed hope that the Dutchmen were really back and headed for some great things the next season. It also was the moment that Jack O'reilly, a very talented LB who had suffered through 0-10 and 3-7 seasons his Freshman and Junior seasons, had a 79 yard pick 6 and strategically placed the football on the RPI roof to culminate his career. *btw this was also when I realized how much a a douche I had been regarding RPI for so many of the previous years. Whether it was "judging" their fans for celebrations they deserved to have, or being close minded and not recognizing their success as an LL team and a great program. I learned that this is about dedicated students athletes and fans having fun and I needed to "light the **** up" and stop being petty. I've enjoyed this rivalry so much more since then (thanks to Mach for calling em out on some **** regarding this).

Worst Loss
11/11/2006: Ah I remember it so well, All American SR RB Tom Arciadicano and Sr QB Jay Marotti leading the team onto awesome and historic 86 field. Union had lost an early season game at Springfield but had rebounded to win 7 in a row and the LL title. The Shoes game seemed a mere formality as the Dutchmen were already headed to the NCAA tourney. This was a filthy good team IMHO and had sights set on making up for the previous year's second round 28-24 loss to Rowan. RPI derailed all of it, all of it. The Engineers came out and punched Union right in the face. They were the better team that day on 86 field and not only took the Shoes trophy but took all of Union's self respect and momentum from the season. Needless to say  Union went on to got smoked by SJF in the first round of the NCAA but IMHO the Dutchmen didn't even show up in Pittsford. Their assess had been so thoroughly kicked by RPI it was simply all over. *I always will remember walking out of 86 field after that game and saying to a celebrating RPI fan, "this game means nothing to us." She looked at me and appropriately responded, "it means that we are better than you." She was 1000% correct based on that game and I've always regretted making that douchey comment to a fan who had every right to be celebrating a great victory.

I am so excited for tomorrow and like I said before, I love Union and want them to win but I don't think they will. I am just looking forward to watching a great rivalry between two great programs of hard working and dedicated athletes. I will be wholeheartedly supporting tomorrow's winner as they move on to represent the LL in the NCAA tourney.

[ICGrad]

To put this another way, can you think of a single compelling reason that Buff State or Hilbert SHOULD be in the LL?

You guys (all of you complaining about this) don't want to boot Buffalo State because they're not a "good fit" for the LL and they're an outlier geographically.

Interestingly, you completely ignored Union's question.

[unionpalooza]

Yeah, this is a dumb take.  You took the worst four-year run in modern history of a team that was a founding member of the league and its predecessor going back to 1995, during which three decades it has had five losing seasons.  Buff St. is a football-only member that has nothing institutionally in common with the rest of the LL and has won seven games in its six years in the league.  Hilbert is a football-only member that has nothing institutionally in common with the rest of the LL and has won no games in its first four years. Neither school has recently demonstrated an institutional willingness to invest anything remotely comparable to the resources other LL teams invest in their program. They are both 90 minutes to the west of the farthest edge of the league's geographic footprint. Neither are needed for the LL to earn an AQ.

To put this another way, can you think of a single compelling reason that Buff State or Hilbert SHOULD be in the LL?

You guys (all of you complaining about this) don't want to boot Buffalo State because they're not a "good fit" for the LL and they're an outlier geographically.

You want to boot them because they're bad and it's easier to blame Buffalo State being bad for the lack of Pool C bids than it is to blame your own teams for losing winnable out of conference games.

Okay, so what happens if Union, or Ithaca, or RPI start being lousy and Buffalo State gets better? How bad is bad enough? How long does it have to last?

I know we're all off scoffing at that idea because uh...well... come on bro, but no one's immune to being terrible, and no one is prohibited from hiring the right coach and fixing their program.

I want to boot them for all of the above; there are many cons and no pros to their being associate members.  Unless your primary goal is a game you can win by 50+ points, you could instead schedule a nonconference game against any one of the 90 or so other R1/R2 teams, and you could literally do no worse, and in almost every case, better. As associate members, they make no more sense than Maine Maritime, Norwich or Fitchburg State.  Maybe we should make scheduling even easier and fold those guys into the league as associate members too?

 

[Machiavelli]

Fitchburg would probably Monkey Stomp Hilbert. LOLOLOL

[UfanBill]

Ice Bear, you bring back memories and those are to be treasured good or bad. Of course I was right there with you for both of those Shoes Games. While I agree on the Best I'd have to disagree on the Worst.

That 11/1/2018 Shoes game was pure joy for Union fans. RPI came in undefeated and had already wrapped up the Liberty League AQ. Union with 6 wins was positioning itself for what we thought was an ECAC bowl game.(more about that below) After the Engineers took a 7-0 lead two Union first years went to work RB Ike Irabor scored 3 TDs and the sensational WR Andre Ross Jr. caught another. The Dutchman were rolling up 27-10 when the dynamic Jack Reilly stepped into Union football lore by stepping in front of a George Marinopoulos pass and taking it to the house. But as Ice Bear said what he did next sealed the deal for me and put Jack into Union football glory. As he crossed the goal line he chucked the football up on the roof of the end zone building. Of course he got an unsportsmanlike penalty but it was glorious. It turned out that was Reilly's last moment on a football field  because it was the 2 time 1st Team All Liberty League performer final game. Unbeknown to most, the Union administration had ruled against the opportunity to play any post season games(except NCAA tourney) citing that Union's academic calendar places first tri-mester final exams the same week and studies come first. That still holds as they haven't declared for the ECAC's since. 

My most disappointing and a game ending that still sickens me happened just a couple of years ago. Union had opened the post-covid reopening with 8 straight wins before stumbling at Ithaca. On November 13, 2021 the Shoes game again held NCAA implications. Union needed a win to likely be awarded an at large bid while as it turned out an RPI win and an Ithaca loss to Cortland on the same day meant the Engineers would gain the 3-way championship tiebreaker. Sound familiar?...Union got off to a 10-0 start and stretched it to 17-7 at the start of the 4th quarter. A RPI 26 yard FG from RPI soccer star Trevor Bisson, playing his first ever college football game, brought the Engineers to within a touchdown. A late RPI drive led by QB George Marinopoulos (yes he was still around) took the score to 17-16 with only 29 seconds left. At that point RPI coach Ralph Insernia went for the 2 point try for the win. Gutsy but it failed when a pass was knocked down. Union wins 17-16 right? Here's where the craziness starts. An unnoticed unsportsmanship penalty called on Union for celebrating the extra point stop, places the ensuing RPI kickoff from the 50 instead of the 35. The kick bounces 12 yards where it's covered by a Union player. He's laying on the field with control of the ball...until three RPI players pile on top of him and wrestle the ball away. In my mind the play should have been blown dead with Union possession but the ref decided to give the ball to RPI. Two completed Marinopoulos passes later and a spike and out comes the soccer player and he drills a 36 yard game winning FG. Heartbreaking. No post season for Union or Ithaca as they lost 28-27 to Cortland and neither got a Pool C. RPI went on to beat Endicott and Cortland in the NCAA's before being monkey stomped by North Central.