FB: Liberty League

[dlippiel]

dlip heard from a pretty reliable source (still does not mean this is completely true) that King was "forced" out of RPI. That RPI is planning on moving up in division (did not hear any specifics regarding which division) and that King was either not in support of a move or not in the schools plans when the move comes. Again hate to be the ****ing "gossip" starter here but thought others may have some more insight into this. dlip thinks so very highly of Coach King and all he was able to accomplish at RPI.

[labart96]

dlip heard from a pretty reliable source (still does not mean this is completely true) that King was "forced" out of RPI. That RPI is planning on moving up in division (did not hear any specifics regarding which division) and that King was either not in support of a move or not in the schools plans when the move comes. Again hate to be the ****ing "gossip" starter here but thought others may have some more insight into this. dlip thinks so very highly of Coach King and all he was able to accomplish at RPI.

RT asked that TGP pass along the following:

Ha. Well please respond on behalf of RT, who is fairly wired-in to the top levels of the administration and other levels of the program....[Coach King] wasn't "forced" out and the D1 rumor is untrue. RPI made the call 3 years ago to not pursue the D1 thing b/c of the impact on all other programs, not just football. Also, the cost of running a D1-AA program for all RPI's sports vs D3 is much higher and RPI is in cost-cut mode.

As far as talk of the stadium being the indicator...that's not true either. RPI wanted top tier D3 facilities to usher them into the new century and make RPI a showplace [in order] to attract the top student athletes and donations. They are happy where they are.

[dlippiel]

dlip heard from a pretty reliable source (still does not mean this is completely true) that King was "forced" out of RPI. That RPI is planning on moving up in division (did not hear any specifics regarding which division) and that King was either not in support of a move or not in the schools plans when the move comes. Again hate to be the ****ing "gossip" starter here but thought others may have some more insight into this. dlip thinks so very highly of Coach King and all he was able to accomplish at RPI.

RT asked that TGP pass along the following:

Ha. Well please respond on behalf of RT, who is fairly wired-in to the top levels of the administration and other levels of the program....[Coach King] wasn't "forced" out and the D1 rumor is untrue. RPI made the call 3 years ago to not pursue the D1 thing b/c of the impact on all other programs, not just football. Also, the cost of running a D1-AA program for all RPI's sports vs D3 is much higher and RPI is in cost-cut mode.

As far as talk of the stadium being the indicator...that's not true either. RPI wanted top tier D3 facilities to usher them into the new century and make RPI a showplace [in order] to attract the top student athletes and donations. They are happy where they are.

dlip hopes this is the case and definitely takes RT's word for it. As much as dlip dislikes the Engineers as a rival, he respects them a tremendous amount, and plus, without them their is no rivalry. Still, sad to see King go. Yet, maybe coming from a place of Garnet, somewhat happy to see King go. Thanks for some clarification fellas.

[Frank Rossi]

dlip heard from a pretty reliable source (still does not mean this is completely true) that King was "forced" out of RPI. That RPI is planning on moving up in division (did not hear any specifics regarding which division) and that King was either not in support of a move or not in the schools plans when the move comes. Again hate to be the ****ing "gossip" starter here but thought others may have some more insight into this. dlip thinks so very highly of Coach King and all he was able to accomplish at RPI.

I'm a huge believer in legacies and protecting them from the evilness that is the rumor mill in this world.  My true belief in the present situation is that a poor word choice on the part of RPI ("resigns") has led to the grinding of the rumor mill concerning Coach King.

That said, I have confirmed with a source EXTREMELY CLOSE to the situation that Coach Joe King single-handedly made the decision to leave RPI based on his assessment of what was best for him, his family and the program going forward.  There was absolutely no "force out" by anyone inside RPI, based on this source, and it is disappointing that we continue to run down this somewhat ugly analysis of rumors.  Let us focus on cherishing the job Coach King did in making RPI a nationally-respected Division III Football program.  His work ethic and success speak for themselves.

The discussion concerning Division I and RPI is one of which I am fully aware.  I will not comment on the validity of those rumors, as I've heard things in both directions concerning the rumors.  Personally, I believe that the Capital Region is already saturated with Division I programs, with Siena and UAlbany already at that level.  I also believe that the lessons of Union's near demise in the late 1970s related to a potential jump to Divsion I due to Men's Ice Hockey is a huge lesson that must be heeded in any analysis by RPI.  In addition, the number of sports Siena had to disband due to the Division I rules in the 1990s through today should also be a reminder of the risks and losses schools encounter when making such a jump.  Sure, it is an exposure boon to be in Division I, but risking the Ice Hockey Division I grandfathering that RPI has to make the jump is a big concern -- the school already has its cake in that respect.  Even with the Men's Ice Hockey program at #6 in the Pairwise Rankings this season, the exposure level is not of a level that would really motivate a program-wide move to Division I.

RPI will make its own decision on this.  However, the question of Division I and the question of Coach King's retirement as a Division III head coach are two completely separate matters that should be discussed just that way going forward: separately.

[dlippiel]

That said, I have confirmed with a source EXTREMELY CLOSE to the situation that Coach Joe King single-handedly made the decision to leave RPI based on his assessment of what was best for him, his family and the program going forward.  There was absolutely no "force out" by anyone inside RPI, based on this source, and it is disappointing that we continue to run down this somewhat ugly analysis of rumors.  Let us focus on cherishing the job Coach King did in making RPI a nationally-respected Division III Football program.  His work ethic and success speak for themselves.

Isn't this what we do here? Discuss D3 football and the goings on around it? Especially on this board regarding RPI and a figuure like Coach King. Why wouldn't we discuss the possible scenerios regarding his leaving the program, as well as the future and/or direction of the program? As long as it's done in a respectful manner, which it clearly has been on this board, there should be no problem discussing this situation. We find out the real answers by sharing what we hear, in a positive way, and finding out from others, who are more informed, the specifics of the situation. There is nothing disappointing or ugly about it.

[lewdogg11]

That said, I have confirmed with a source EXTREMELY CLOSE to the situation that Coach Joe King single-handedly made the decision to leave RPI based on his assessment of what was best for him, his family and the program going forward.  There was absolutely no "force out" by anyone inside RPI, based on this source, and it is disappointing that we continue to run down this somewhat ugly analysis of rumors.  Let us focus on cherishing the job Coach King did in making RPI a nationally-respected Division III Football program.  His work ethic and success speak for themselves.

Isn't this what we do here? Discuss D3 football and the goings on around it? Especially on this board regarding RPI and a figuure like Coach King. Why wouldn't we discuss the possible scenerios regarding his leaving the program, as well as the future and/or direction of the program? As long as it's done in a respectful manner, which it clearly has been on this board, there should be no problem discussing this situation. We find out the real answers by sharing what we hear, in a positive way, and finding out from others, who are more informed, the specifics of the situation. There is nothing disappointing or ugly about it.

I agree with you dlip.  I didn't think you made mention of anything a lot of people haven't been wondering about themselves.  RT hasn't been on the boards for some time and immediately he runs to the defense of the program, and your comment got skewed as being 'ugly analysis'.  But i'm positive, he doesn't know everything.  As a point of discussion, I think you raised some good points.

[Frank Rossi]

There are ways to verify rumors short of running onto the message boards first, feeding rumors like these further.  I picked up a phone and had my answer within two minutes of reading dlip's post.  It took me 10x longer to actually write my response than it took to verify.  Dlip, you have my number and have access to RT and TGP -- that's one way to avoid the "Catch 22" here.

And LD, while it's nice to dismiss RT's answer as a defense of the program and nothing more, it matches my independent verification and analysis.  There's no need to dismiss his answer as such.

[Edit: Dlip, by the way, the pointedness of my original response wasn't based on how you put it, respectfully or otherwise.  It was more a criticism of other people even outside these message boards floating these rumors in a pretty volatile manner.  What I said above about how to verify is more a response to everyone, on these boards and off these boards, as to how to help get answers and kill rumor-mongering.  Sorry if I came across as attacking you personally -- wasn't my intent.]

[lewdogg11]

There are ways to verify rumors short of running onto the message boards first, feeding rumors like these further.  I picked up a phone and had my answer within two minutes of reading dlip's post.  It took me 10x longer to actually write my response than it took to verify.  Dlip, you have my number and have access to RT and TGP -- that's one way to avoid the "Catch 22" here.

And LD, while it's nice to dismiss RT's answer as a defense of the program and nothing more, it matches my independent verification and analysis.  There's no need to dismiss his answer as such.

[Edit: Dlip, by the way, the pointedness of my original response wasn't based on how you put it, respectfully or otherwise.  It was more a criticism of other people even outside these message boards floating these rumors in a pretty volatile manner.  What I said above about how to verify is more a response to everyone, on these boards and off these boards, as to how to help get answers and kill rumor-mongering.  Sorry if I came across as attacking you personally -- wasn't my intent.]

I'm not dismissing anyone's knowledge of anything, but until I see an official response from the Administration, I think you can only believe what you hear.  And everyone's heard some differing things.

Look at the stuff that was/has been going on over at Mount Union this offseason.  Was all of that brought on by rumors?  I doubt it.  Most rumors have some type of justified origination.

I think in this case, there is plenty of ammo to discuss it both ways.  Coach King has done wonders for the RPI program.  No one can deny that.  Maybe, just MAYBE, the Administration felt that he brought the program as far as he could.  Why hasn't there been an interim HC named?  Usually in a typical step-down situation, the coach names his predecessor.  That has not yet happened.  So there is plenty to speculate on.  And I DO believe that this message board is a perfectly fine place to do it.  The factual articles are for the front page.

[union89]

I found dlip's initial comments both interesting and thought provoking given the recent moves by RPI.  Investing multi-millions into a huge football stadium which they can not fill to 25% capacity and the rumors of moving out of D3 leads to speculation.  When I originally read dlip's comments, I sat and concluded that his statements made total sense given the state of RPI football.

No one's statements in this D3 message board are any more valid than the next persons.  Dlip's words allowed an opportunity for discussion during a very slow time in LLPP.  Frank's self important rebuttal could have been predicted by anyone who has participated on these boards over the years.

[Frank Rossi]

Apparently, 89, you're confusing self-important with self-informed.  The distinction is key, and to use that to describe me picking up a phone and then correcting and chiding rumor-mongering would be akin to calling Bill Simmons, Rick Reilly or Peter King "self-important."  Of course, this is coming from a guy who's never picked up a phone to call me directly the three times I offered to take arguments off the public boards and place them behind the scenes.  So, I guess I'll consider the source here...

It's interesting to hear someone say how the D1/King "resigns" situation makes any sense.  Do we have such short memories as to the last time a local program made the jump?  Did Bob Ford get "forced out" at UAlbany because of the school's D1 transition?  No.  What Coach King has done for RPI is right up there compared to what Coach Ford did for UAlbany at the D3 level.  So, why would RPI just jump and force out the important figurehead of their football program when it takes at least five years for an orderly D1 transition in the first place?  That's exactly why the connection of the two ideas makes NO sense.  It's not to say King might not know better than us what's next at RPI and didn't want to be part of such a possible transition for personal and team-based issues, but that's not a "force out" since that was HIS decision (and let me stress, I have no idea of whether the previous statement is true or false, but it's an example of how rumors begin morphing in this manner to the lowest common denominator).

We can make anything make sense if we try hard enough.  I've been sent some bizarre messages concerning this entire matter that, if I think long enough about them, could make plenty of sense -- except, they're flat out untrue.  Remember, there is always a source from which these rumors started, and that's where my finger wagging is aimed toward -- not specific individuals on these boards.

By the way, 89, it's 646-234-6978, just in case you feel like using it to keep the dirty laundry outside the public eye.  Have a great day, Buddy!

[Doid23]

Dlip,

I think it is in poor taste, and frankly, immoral for you to spread rumours about Joe King of being fired due to accusations of his dealing drugs on campus, having an extramarital affair with President Jackson (and the ensuing love child), and showing up drunk to work every day this offseason. Shame on you.

Oh, wait, you just questioned whether there may have been some pressure on him to resign, a question that occurred to many of us? Similar to questions that arise with every other coach who has ever proffered a surprise resignation? Nevermind.

[Jonny Utah]

I would say King and RPI have done a lot more than Albany has ever done.  I've never met Bob Ford but everyone I have ever talked to has told me he is one of the most knowledegable coaches they have ever met.  But Albany has not really done anything over the last 30 years.

[Jonny Utah]

D3 related post....
JU is going to see the Wheelock/Lesley men's basketball game tonight.  Since everyone here is dying on hearing the recap, stay tuned...

[Jonny Utah]

RE: RPI to d1.

Although I could see them making the move, I have a gut feeling that they won't.  Bottom line is that 1-AA football is going to lose money and division 1 sports in general at RPI is going to lose money (with the possible exception of mens hockey which is already established).  To have a competetive d-1aa football program you really have to sacrifice a lot on the adacemic side which I don't think RPI is willing to do. 

Upstate d3 football is better than many northeast 1-AA football conferences (Ivy league and Patriot leage excluded).  Maybe RPIs stadium is a good sign and you see more d3 teams getting bigger stadiums and filling them?

[lewdogg11]

RE: RPI to d1.

Although I could see them making the move, I have a gut feeling that they won't.  Bottom line is that 1-AA football is going to lose money and division 1 sports in general at RPI is going to lose money (with the possible exception of mens hockey which is already established).  To have a competetive d-1aa football program you really have to sacrifice a lot on the adacemic side which I don't think RPI is willing to do.  

Upstate d3 football is better than many northeast 1-AA football conferences (Ivy league and Patriot leage excluded).  Maybe RPIs stadium is a good sign and you see more d3 teams getting bigger stadiums and filling them?

On the topic of the stadium, LD stopped in Troy last Saturday to check out the stadium.  Very impressive.  I would actually like to see them stay at the D3 level because that facility should be able to draw athletes from all over the country.  It's really pretty sweet and I have a hard time believing that there is a complex of that caliber anywhere else in D3.  I don't know how any d3 level football player with half a brain wouldn't have some interest in playing there.  

And maybe the School Administration should put a little student support into the football program.  They had their 'Big Red Freakout' for the hockey team last weekend.  With only 4-5 home football games/year, they should be able to hold some events to get some heads inside the stadium.  I know everyone associated with the program would appreciate it.  How about giving free tickets to everyone at Troy High for 1 game?  Other than the knife fights, that could generate some interest.  How about teachers offer bonus test points or something for every kid that went to the game?  There is something called school spirit.  Half the problem is a lot of RPI students don't know what football(futball?) actually is.

How about a few night games?