FB: Liberty League

[Frank Rossi]

As much as I love the Dutchmen, I tend to agree. It certainly wouldn't be great for the LL as you mentioned, but the program as well.

Now, on the other hand, as a player, I could care less, I would love to play in the NCAA's, even it were to be thumped by Mt. Union.

OK, I'll bite -- why would it be problematic for the team?  Doesn't make much sense after a 2-7 season last year.  Sure, the goal is for 6-4 right now -- but the game is a nullity for playoff and seeding purposes (we know they'd be placed 8th and likely be sent to DelVal or UMU).  St. Lawrence got some recruiting mileage out of last year from what I've heard -- so I'm just curious as to the statement.

[AUKaz00]

As much as I love the Dutchmen, I tend to agree. It certainly wouldn't be great for the LL as you mentioned, but the program as well.

Now, on the other hand, as a player, I could care less, I would love to play in the NCAA's, even it were to be thumped by Mt. Union.

OK, I'll bite -- why would it be problematic for the team?  Doesn't make much sense after a 2-7 season last year.  Sure, the goal is for 6-4 right now -- but the game is a nullity for playoff and seeding purposes (we know they'd be placed 8th and likely be sent to DelVal or UMU).  St. Lawrence got some recruiting mileage out of last year from what I've heard -- so I'm just curious as to the statement.

As we know from your thoughts on Salisbury and Frostburg joining the E8, the extra mileage and playing a tough opponent is a killer to the program, conference and region!

[Doid23]

As much as I love the Dutchmen, I tend to agree. It certainly wouldn't be great for the LL as you mentioned, but the program as well.

Now, on the other hand, as a player, I could care less, I would love to play in the NCAA's, even it were to be thumped by Mt. Union.

OK, I'll bite -- why would it be problematic for the team?  Doesn't make much sense after a 2-7 season last year.  Sure, the goal is for 6-4 right now -- but the game is a nullity for playoff and seeding purposes (we know they'd be placed 8th and likely be sent to DelVal or UMU).  St. Lawrence got some recruiting mileage out of last year from what I've heard -- so I'm just curious as to the statement.

To clarify, I was referring to Union as a 5-5 team qualifying for the NCAA's (which is what Bomber was referencing). If Union were to beat Springfield, despite it not mattering in regards to the LL title, I would have a different opinion, I think it would be a great sign of Union's rebound from last year and the beginning of the season. But at 5-5, it's like SLU last year, win a weak LL but lose to all non-league opponents.

As to my commments on the program, Union entering as a 5-5 team would bring about the same negative comments as SLU last year, and Union would be the target of the comments (LL doesn't deserve an AQ, Union hasn't beaten anyone outside the LL, Union lost to an average Salve team, etc.). For SLU last year, given where their program was the past decade or so, the positives outweigh the negatives. Maybe I'm living in the past, but given the Union program's past successes, I don't believe that the positives outweigh the negatives. But I haven't given it a ton of thought, just that I thought the same thing as Bomber did when I saw the posts.

[lewdogg11]

As much as I love the Dutchmen, I tend to agree. It certainly wouldn't be great for the LL as you mentioned, but the program as well.

Now, on the other hand, as a player, I could care less, I would love to play in the NCAA's, even it were to be thumped by Mt. Union.

OK, I'll bite -- why would it be problematic for the team?  Doesn't make much sense after a 2-7 season last year.  Sure, the goal is for 6-4 right now -- but the game is a nullity for playoff and seeding purposes (we know they'd be placed 8th and likely be sent to DelVal or UMU).  St. Lawrence got some recruiting mileage out of last year from what I've heard -- so I'm just curious as to the statement.

To clarify, I was referring to Union as a 5-5 team qualifying for the NCAA's (which is what Bomber was referencing). If Union were to beat Springfield, despite it not mattering in regards to the LL title, I would have a different opinion, I think it would be a great sign of Union's rebound from last year and the beginning of the season. But at 5-5, it's like SLU last year, win a weak LL but lose to all non-league opponents.

As to my commments on the program, Union entering as a 5-5 team would bring about the same negative comments as SLU last year, and Union would be the target of the comments (LL doesn't deserve an AQ, Union hasn't beaten anyone outside the LL, Union lost to an average Salve team, etc.). For SLU last year, given where there program was the past decade or so, the positives outweigh the negatives. Maybe I'm living in the past, but given the Union program's past successes, I don't believe that the positives outweigh the negatives. But I haven't given it a ton of thought, just that I thought the same thing as Bomber did when I saw the posts.

I have to agree with this, more or less for the League and not Union's program.  There is a pretty solid chance that Union loses to Springfield.  I doubt Hobart will lose, but if they did, and the LL sent 5-5 teams to the playoffs 2 years in a row, then we are getting into NEFC, ECFC territory because it's obvious that the LL can't win OOC consistently. 

[dlippiel]

As much as I love the Dutchmen, I tend to agree. It certainly wouldn't be great for the LL as you mentioned, but the program as well.

Now, on the other hand, as a player, I could care less, I would love to play in the NCAA's, even it were to be thumped by Mt. Union.

OK, I'll bite -- why would it be problematic for the team?  Doesn't make much sense after a 2-7 season last year.  Sure, the goal is for 6-4 right now -- but the game is a nullity for playoff and seeding purposes (we know they'd be placed 8th and likely be sent to DelVal or UMU).  St. Lawrence got some recruiting mileage out of last year from what I've heard -- so I'm just curious as to the statement.

To clarify, I was referring to Union as a 5-5 team qualifying for the NCAA's (which is what Bomber was referencing). If Union were to beat Springfield, despite it not mattering in regards to the LL title, I would have a different opinion, I think it would be a great sign of Union's rebound from last year and the beginning of the season. But at 5-5, it's like SLU last year, win a weak LL but lose to all non-league opponents.

As to my commments on the program, Union entering as a 5-5 team would bring about the same negative comments as SLU last year, and Union would be the target of the comments (LL doesn't deserve an AQ, Union hasn't beaten anyone outside the LL, Union lost to an average Salve team, etc.). For SLU last year, given where their program was the past decade or so, the positives outweigh the negatives. Maybe I'm living in the past, but given the Union program's past successes, I don't believe that the positives outweigh the negatives. But I haven't given it a ton of thought, just that I thought the same thing as Bomber did when I saw the posts.

dlip sees validity to both sides, but honestly, he would love for the Dutchmen to get the bid. There is just no way, as a lifelong Union fan, dlip could be/would be anything but estatic for Union's program and it's players to get a shot at the show this year.

On top of this, to dlip, there is a profound difference between the Union of today and the Union that lost to Ithaca, Salve, and Utica. If dlip was being honest, IHO, if those three games were played over again today, Union goes 2-1. Union beats both Ithaca and Utica period. dlip also feels that the difference between the SLU of last year and Union of this year is that the Dutchmen would be able put some points up against UMU and especially Del Val. They would most likely lose both games, but at least they would gain respect with a solid offense.

dlip could be wrong here, but he thinks the Dutchmen may surprise some this weekend and make a statement against the Pride. As all know, dlip loves the Pride and their triple option offense, but he thinks that with Union's pourous D not having to worry as much about the pass, they may make enough key stops where the O does enough to win. We shall see.

[lewdogg11]

As much as I love the Dutchmen, I tend to agree. It certainly wouldn't be great for the LL as you mentioned, but the program as well.

Now, on the other hand, as a player, I could care less, I would love to play in the NCAA's, even it were to be thumped by Mt. Union.

OK, I'll bite -- why would it be problematic for the team?  Doesn't make much sense after a 2-7 season last year.  Sure, the goal is for 6-4 right now -- but the game is a nullity for playoff and seeding purposes (we know they'd be placed 8th and likely be sent to DelVal or UMU).  St. Lawrence got some recruiting mileage out of last year from what I've heard -- so I'm just curious as to the statement.

To clarify, I was referring to Union as a 5-5 team qualifying for the NCAA's (which is what Bomber was referencing). If Union were to beat Springfield, despite it not mattering in regards to the LL title, I would have a different opinion, I think it would be a great sign of Union's rebound from last year and the beginning of the season. But at 5-5, it's like SLU last year, win a weak LL but lose to all non-league opponents.

As to my commments on the program, Union entering as a 5-5 team would bring about the same negative comments as SLU last year, and Union would be the target of the comments (LL doesn't deserve an AQ, Union hasn't beaten anyone outside the LL, Union lost to an average Salve team, etc.). For SLU last year, given where their program was the past decade or so, the positives outweigh the negatives. Maybe I'm living in the past, but given the Union program's past successes, I don't believe that the positives outweigh the negatives. But I haven't given it a ton of thought, just that I thought the same thing as Bomber did when I saw the posts.

dlip sees validity to both sides, but honestly, he would love for the Dutchmen to get the bid. There is just no way, as a lifelong Union fan, dlip could be/would be anything but estatic for Union's program and it's players to get a shot at the show this year.

On top of this, to dlip, there is a profound difference between the Union of today and the Union that lost to Ithaca, Salve, and Utica. If dlip was being honest, IHO, if those three games were played over again today, Union goes 2-1. Union beats both Ithaca and Utica period. dlip also feels that the difference between the SLU of last year and Union of this year is that the Dutchmen would be able put some points up against UMU and especially Del Val. They would most likely lose both games, but at least they would gain respect with a solid offense.

dlip could be wrong here, but he thinks the Dutchmen may surprise some this weekend and make a statement against the Pride. As all know, dlip loves the Pride and their triple option offense, but he thinks that with Union's pourous D not having to worry as much about the pass, they may make enough key stops where the O does enough to win. We shall see.

The best way to beat Springfield is to keep their offense off the field, and to have long clock-eating drives that result in points.  Union's offense I think will have to dictate the game.  If they struggle, it will be a long day.(but a short game)

[Doid23]

dlip sees validity to both sides

So do I...

[Doid23]

If dlip was being honest, IHO, if those three games were played over again today, Union goes 2-1. Union beats both Ithaca and Utica period.

...but I'm scratching my head on this one. They lost close games to Utica and Salve, and got soundly beaten by Ithaca. I obviously haven't seen any of the teams play, but logic would dictacte that they could possibly turn around their close losses if they've had big improvement. Ithaca, while not having a great record, has played close games in most of their losses.

[dlippiel]

If dlip was being honest, IHO, if those three games were played over again today, Union goes 2-1. Union beats both Ithaca and Utica period.

...but I'm scratching my head on this one. They lost close games to Utica and Salve, and got soundly beaten by Ithaca. I obviously haven't seen any of the teams play, but logic would dictacte that they could possibly turn around their close losses if they've had big improvement. Ithaca, while not having a great record, has played close games in most of their losses.

Yeah, dlip actually meant to write Utica and Salve. Also, looking at the way he wrote it, it looks a little dickheadish using the word "period." He did not mean to come across that strong and still feels that the games would be somewhat close (taking into consideration Union's defensive struggles). Ithaca would be a close game and somewhat interesting if played again. dlip thinks, with no disrespect towards Utica and Salve, that Union would win those games today if the teams played again. Sorry for the mistype. dlip ****ing hates when he does that! Anyway his point was that Union would do the LL better than SLU did last year BUT the perception of the two teams (looking at program prestige, etc) would make things difficult and could be even more of a blow to the LL. Tough call, but again, dlip would love to see this Union team in the NCAA's.

[Bombers798891]

If dlip was being honest, IHO, if those three games were played over again today, Union goes 2-1. Union beats both Ithaca and Utica period.

...but I'm scratching my head on this one. They lost close games to Utica and Salve, and got soundly beaten by Ithaca. I obviously haven't seen any of the teams play, but logic would dictacte that they could possibly turn around their close losses if they've had big improvement. Ithaca, while not having a great record, has played close games in most of their losses.

I disagree. Union did nothing but shoot itself in the foot the entire game. I think they absolutely beat Ithaca today.

That said, please note that my original comment was meant more as a reflection on the LL than Union but let me add my thoughts on what it might mean for them.

I think any playoff bid is better than none, but SLU's situation was drastically different. Put simply, the Saints might have been the worst program in all of D-III for a stretch. They were 12-92 from 1993-2003 and 1-39 in one four year stretch. To go from that to a playoff berth (however it was attained) is significant. Union struggled in 2010, but they were 8-3 in 2009. The 2005 team was insanely good. Union has had some rough patches (They've been a little like IC frankly), but those patches have been of mediocrity, not a decade of awfulness.

[pumkinattack]

I'm still as pissed (or moreso) than Rev, but am hoping it's just a blip for Hobart.  They've never had an undefeated season, yet beat a few non NEFC teams in the playoffs in years where they took what were sometimes random losses (Union at home in 2008, acquitted themselves pretty well in the playoffs just not having nearly enough offense to keep Mt Union off the field despite a top 10 defensive unit). 

I'm hoping this is like Hobart in 2008, RPI in 2003, etc. for Bart's sake. 

[Doid23]

Cool story about Tennessee calling a frat house to get a kicker:

http://www.govolsxtra.com/news/2011/nov/06/derrick-brodus-springs-from-couch-answers-call-a/

[Jonny Utah]

Can Gro please come out of hiding?


_{Gro at LD's holloween party}

[ExTartanPlayer]

I mean, I doubt it will happen. Hobart should beat Rochester and I think Union has a real good shot to beat Springfield, but, and I'm not trying to get on Frank's bad side here, this would be a bad thing. Union's playing better than they were, but I think it would look bad to have back-to-back seasons with a .500 team as a Pool A bid. (Not to mention, I think Hobart is the better team)

Just posted something about this on the ERFP thread yesterday...Hobart REALLY screwed the pooch by dropping that game to RPI and leaving themselves in a "win or go home" game against Rochester.

On paper, Bart should win this game, but Rochy did beat 'Bart last year and has played decent ball of late.  It's not that farfetched to imagine Rochy winning this game, and with Union already in the clubhouse at 5-1 in the LL, I started thinking the same way that Bombers did here.

[pumkinattack]

Hobart fans are already pissed off that this team (and really the last three years sans the QB position) has more talent than the teams that went to the playoffs 6 out of 8 years in the 2000's (or 5 of 8 depending if you go 2000-09 or 01-10), but is lacking in leadership. 

Given that, nothing is farfetched, but I don't find your analysis compelling.  Vella singlehandedly lost 3 of the 4 games they lost last year (Fisher did to us what we did to them this year, Vella wasn't changing that) and yet Bart lost by going for two and failing in OT last year in what was their worst year since 2001. 

This is UofR this year:
Date  Opponent Time/Result Location Details
10/22/2011  * WPI W 28-21  Rochester, N.Y. Details 
10/29/2011    Alfred L 17-24  Rochester, N.Y. Details 
11/5/2011  * St. Lawrence W 16-13  Canton, N.Y. Details

Decent ball is being pretty generous, don't you think, compared with how they played down the stretch last year (and how Hobart played all of last year vs this year)?

2010
Sat Oct 23 12:00 pm at WPI C W 16 - 15   Box   Recap
Sat Oct 30 12:30 pm at Alfred  W 24 - 14   Box   Recap
Sat Nov 6 12:00 pm  St. Lawrence C W 34 - 14   Box

2&1 with two home games, one a loss to a flailing AU vs. two road wins, 1 vs arguably the east's best team last year and 20pt home win vs. SLU. 

Of course I'm paranoid about losing and think Rev shouldn't have backed off his original thoughts after the game (at home that we were up 21-0 and 28-7 early), but you're comparing a 5-4 team with an inept QB who got blown out in an OOC game with a borderline inept QB vs. a 1 loss team that lost by one last week in an incredibly poorly played game.  If Hobart loses on Sat, they need to turn over the entire roster and get some people who know how to win, but comparing last year and this year based on "hey Roch won last year and they're playing decent ball of late" doesn't really seem to make sense to someone who follows this team closely. 

Ugh, that I even have to think about this at this point in the season is depressing given where we've been.  With the 8 game schedule and early season poundings this should've been an undefeated regular season.  I can only take solace that all of their prior playoff teams have taken a loss, some years to random non-playoff teams. 

That being said, if someone has an intimate knowledge of UofR and a passing understanding of Hobart's makeup this year, I'd love to hear where UofR has strengths vs. Hobart in the mage (other than an analysis of the stats season to date - doesn't mean much to me compared with personnel matchups).