D3 Top 25 Fan Poll

[Upstate]

2014 JCU > 2013 JCU

Let's see what they do vs UMU or the playoffs first...

[boobyhasgameyo]

2014 JCU > 2013 JCU

You are a Wabash fan, correct?  So I'm assuming you haven't watched every John Carroll game this year.  Therefore, how can you say they are better than last year?  If you are going by the final scores then I suggest you look at what they did last year again.  It was the same story.  Absolutely obliterating teams in the OAC. 

[smedindy]

Some of us watch games other than our teams, ya know...

[boobyhasgameyo]

Some of us watch games other than our teams, ya know...

I hate when people are contrarian.  Unless you are Pat, Keith and a very select few others, the chances are you haven't watched enough of teams outside of Wabash, like JCU, to make such statements.  I have watched the following teams this year outside of my team/conference/general vicinity:

St. John's
St. Thomas
Wartburg
Baldwin Wallace
Mary Hardin Baylor


And the following teams I would have no business saying are better or worse than last year based off the game or two I saw: 

St. John's
St. Thomas
Wartburg
Baldwin Wallace
Mary Hardin Baylor

Unless you tell me that you watched a majority of John Carroll's games last year, and you've seen a majority of their games this year...you saying they are better this year doesn't hold much water. 

[wally_wabash]

Really?  Pat and Keith (and the very select few others who shall remain nameless) are the only people that can have a credible opinion on D3 football?  Come on now. 

[USee]

Really?  Pat and Keith (and the very select few others who shall remain nameless) are the only people that can have a credible opinion on D3 football?  Come on now.

Pretty much eliminates all the voters for d3.com

[smedindy]

Some of us watch games other than our teams, ya know...

I hate when people are contrarian. 

I hate when people state no one can have any opinions on teams outside of their league or rooting interest, even though they've followed the sport intently since this site was live (and even before) and do their best to be nationally informed.

[boobyhasgameyo]

Wow, ok I see I have to break this down even further.  Polls are largely comprised of individuals making inferences based on limited data.  That is why there are constant fluctuations in polls, because peoples data sets keep expanding and they can make more educated assumptions.  You can infer that a team is better or worse based on what you see in a box score or if you have seen a team play once or twice.  Some teams can make it easier to go beyond an inference by having a significant leap or dropoff in performance to the previous year.  John Carroll has not done either of those.  They are doing the same thing this year that they did last year.  In the cases of Heidelberg and Ohio Northern game, they've actually done noticeably worse this year.  Therefore, again unless you have seen them play enough times this year compared to last, how can you definitively say they are better?  You cannot. 

This isn't a difficult concept to grasp. 

[smedindy]

Damn you, MIAC for throwing wrenches into an orderly Top 25 again. Ok, so the WIAC did too, and so did Willamette...

I do prefer chaos to order, but as a voter, it's tough...

[boobyhasgameyo]

Or alternatively, why don't you inform me why John Carroll is better Smedindy.  I should have started there. 

[smedindy]

Wow, ok I see I have to break this down even further.  Polls are largely comprised of individuals making inferences based on limited data.  That is why there are constant fluctuations in polls, because peoples data sets keep expanding and they can make more educated assumptions.  You can infer that a team is better or worse based on what you see in a box score or if you have seen a team play once or twice.  Some teams can make it easier to go beyond an inference by having a significant leap or dropoff in performance to the previous year.  John Carroll has not done either of those.  They are doing the same thing this year that they did last year.  In the cases of Heidelberg and Ohio Northern game, they've actually done noticeably worse this year.  Therefore, again unless you have seen them play enough times this year compared to last, how can you definitively say they are better?  You cannot. 

This isn't a difficult concept to grasp.

The concept is that you invalidated ANYONE's right to have an opinion. That's wrong on many levels, unjust and unfair.

The data sets change with every game. So do perceptions. But we all have opinions and people on this board tend to be intelligent, and not "HOMER" and not provincial and certainly NOT elitist in nature.

JCU was ahead of 'Berg 43-10 before a late TD. Last year it was 48-7. Whoop, big. That's barely a difference.

ONU is better than they were last year, too.  Teams don't hold constant from one year to the next. So I don't put any stock at all at what last year's JCU team did to last year's ONU team when comparing this year's JCU and ONU team. I feel JCU is better this year. Maybe it's a slight margin, maybe a big margin.

But I get to express my opinion, and I feel it is as valid as anyone else's. Pat and Keith and Ryan do have a more national approach and I think Pat and Ryan get to view a couple more games (I work at my school's game here in Washington, so I miss some of the later games), but many in this board follow everything as much as we can. You are NOT the arbiter of opinion validity.

[smedindy]

I guess Wally should stop his Pool C analysis since it has been written by the arbitrer of opinions that since he doesn't watch ALL of the "C" contenders he can't make a judgement.

[boobyhasgameyo]

Got it, so it's as I thought.  You don't have a real basis for making such a definitive statement.  I am fine and dandy with people saying what they think, I do it a million times.  But your initial approach was almost as if you were speaking in absolutes (2014 JCU > 2013 JCU is pretty emphatic and definitive) ...when really there is no justification that you can give to your argument. 


And since I see that you wrote Wally can stop all Pool C analysis because he hasn't seen all of the teams, it's evident this entire point has flown over your head.  Opinions are fine.  Substantiated ones are even better.  Presenting an opinion based on your gut instinct after not watching a team play, and passing it off as if it is a fact?  Nah. 

[smedindy]

You say I haven't watched them play. False. You lose. Good day sir.

You also said that their 'Berg result in 2014 was worse than 2013. A garbage time score doesn't matter. Dominated in 2014 just as much.

The ONU game is where I swapped Wabash and JCU in my North rankings and my Top 25. Yet I know enough of OAC football that the second tier OAC group (JCU, B-W, ONU, now Otterbein) play each other it's pretty fierce. An isolated result like that doesn't sway me that this group in 2014 is better than the 2013 squad. Maybe not by much, but they are better.

That game in Ada was also played in bad weather, windy and cold. Odd results can happen in the face of strong winds.

More to analyzing team than watching them on video, and seeing them blow out the dregs of the OAC won't help much.

[boobyhasgameyo]

Yeah, again when I say watch I mean more than once or twice.  Not personally attacking you Smedindy, as a matter of fact this is my last post on the topic.

Let's take the Ari Gold approach and hug it out.