NESCAC

[Ejay]

Here's a clip from the end of the game

https://streamable.com/4d2zhj

Vera is running down the sideline and plays the ball towards the Middlebury goal to kill time.  Dugan from Middlebury  barges through his back (intentionally) sending him to the turf well after the play.  I'm sure Vera had some words for the Middlebury bench on his way back as the clock ran out and they lost their cool. Seems to me like Middlebury kicked things off with some dirty play.  Better luck next year Panthers

why does this not surprise me?

[Bucket]

Here's a clip from the end of the game

https://streamable.com/4d2zhj

Vera is running down the sideline and plays the ball towards the Middlebury goal to kill time.  Dugan from Middlebury  barges through his back (intentionally) sending him to the turf well after the play.  I'm sure Vera had some words for the Middlebury bench on his way back as the clock ran out and they lost their cool. Seems to me like Middlebury kicked things off with some dirty play.  Better luck next year Panthers

How do you know that? Do you know what happened preceding the clip? 10 minutes prior to the first clip? In the first half?

I'm not excusing anyone, to repeat. I'm just stating that the notion that this was a one-sided exercise in a high intensity match is a stretch. And I cited the not-exactly-neutral announcer as calling out the Wheaton player and not justifying or qualifying it as a reaction to anything a Midd player did as a solid example, evidence even, that both parties were at fault and not solely one team.

[Nescac in November]

These kinds of incidents happen every season - it's really not that serious.

People on the boards love to turn certain schools into the "bad guys," but in reality, I can think of sportsmanship issues from pretty much every team in the conference. Some programs more than others, sure, but at the end of the day emotions run high in knockout games, especially for seniors whose careers are on the line.

Not excusing violent behavior or outright verbal abuse. But the late hit from the Midd guy in the final seconds isn't great and it's also not some huge scandal. If you have actually played college soccer at a high level you know this stuff happens.

[laker4141]

These kinds of incidents happen every season - it's really not that serious.

People on the boards love to turn certain schools into the "bad guys," but in reality, I can think of sportsmanship issues from pretty much every team in the conference. Some programs more than others, sure, but at the end of the day emotions run high in knockout games, especially for seniors whose careers are on the line.

Not excusing violent behavior or outright verbal abuse. But the late hit from the Midd guy in the final seconds isn't great and it's also not some huge scandal. If you have actually played college soccer at a high level you know this stuff happens.

There's sportsmanship things from every team, sure, as it has been well documented on these pages for years. But who have you seen assault an official? That's actually insane to see.

I don't mind smack talking, physicality and things of that nature but there's obviously a line. The "scandal" here is the post game antics. The coaching staff should be reprimanded as well. Not a great look.

[Nescac in November]

No, I haven't seen that. All i was saying is that's unacceptable if it were to happen. What you're describing doesn't really seem like a huge deal.

I don't really get why stuff like this gets dragged on to these threads. It happens all the time - like when the Amherst player grabbed his crotch at the Midd parents -- guess what, nothing really happened and Amherst still went on to a national final. It doesn't make it right but if you care about it this much you should email the school lol. The player got a red card - what else do you want? Do you want to hear that he was talked to privately and that he promises to never do it again?

I want to talk about the matchups. And with that - I am taking Camels over Bowdoin and Messiah over Tufts.

[Bucket]

These kinds of incidents happen every season - it's really not that serious.

People on the boards love to turn certain schools into the "bad guys," but in reality, I can think of sportsmanship issues from pretty much every team in the conference. Some programs more than others, sure, but at the end of the day emotions run high in knockout games, especially for seniors whose careers are on the line.

Not excusing violent behavior or outright verbal abuse. But the late hit from the Midd guy in the final seconds isn't great and it's also not some huge scandal. If you have actually played college soccer at a high level you know this stuff happens.

There's sportsmanship things from every team, sure, as it has been well documented on these pages for years. But who have you seen assault an official? That's actually insane to see.

I don't mind smack talking, physicality and things of that nature but there's obviously a line. The "scandal" here is the post game antics. The coaching staff should be reprimanded as well. Not a great look.

Did you see someone assault an official? Do you have evidence of this assault?

[GKForverr1]

Been sitting on this data since the end of last season didn't seem relevant but this discussion reminded me I compiled it....had too much time on my hands....

Using the data available on ncaa soccer stats archive plotting fouls per game and yellow cards in a season I have a list with every D1-D3 school. The data is from 2017-end of last season. The list has just over 1000 teams.

The reason it starts in 2017 is that is the first year all fouls per game and yellow cards are available on the ncaa website. To go back farther id need to manually dig up numbers for each team and I'm not that crazy....

Amherst was 35th with 45.33 yellows per season with a high of 65 in the 2023.

Amherst was 2nd with 15.69 fouls per game average with a high of 16.33 in 2022

They had 17+ in 2016 but that's outside the data set I was able to easily work with.

For the record I did go back to 2014 manually for top ranked teams in these categories....Rowan has the highest D3 fouls per game average with just over 16. Amherst is second with 15.5. Again that's 2014-end of last year

The next closest NESCAC team was Middlebury at 368th with 32.5 yellows per season with a high of 43 in 2024. Obviously they have passed that this season.

Middlebury was 18th in fouls per game with 14.53 average with a high of 16.05 in 2019

Rowan was 10th in fouls per game at 14.96 and 7th in yellow cards with an average of 51.67 per season.

The national average across the data set was 11.35 fouls per game and 30.18 yellows per season.

Fun bonus stat...The team with the lowest yellows per season of any team in the whole data set (7.67) is still in the D3 tournament

I'd be interested to know where all the NESCAC teams rank amongst D3 only particularly since Covid. Amherst has been notoriously aggressive for a while but I think Midd has really climbed the rankings more recently. Sounds like both teams have bad reputations at least amongst the NESCAC.

If I re run the numbers post Covid and D3 only....471 schools total


Top 5 NESCAC Schools

Amherst is 3rd with 51.5 yellows
Middlebury is 51st with 36.75 yellows
Conn is tied for 196th with 29 yellows
Hamilton is tied for 340th with 23.75 yellows
Tufts is tied for 350th with 23 yellows

[Ejay]

I take the fouls and cards with a grain of salt. Referees control games differently in different conferences and different parts of the country. Foul counts/cards for NESCAC schools vs. foul counts/cards for ODAC schools is not an apples to apples comparison.

[Falconer]

Good lord that is lame. I'm going to check in with some of my Midd (alum) friends to see if they have any additional info.

The team also had something like 50 cards this season.

According to the NCAA, Middlebury "only" had 41 yellows and 3 reds.  Amherst had the most yellows in the NESCAC this year - 43 - but only 1 red.

I've found, however, that cards are often a function of the league/area of the country, each of which have different ref pools.

For example, Amherst was tied for #24 in the country for yellow cards with 43 and Middlebury was tied for #38 with 41, but check out the cards and national rankings for yellow cards among New Jersey schools:

#1 Drew 58 Yellows
#3 William Paterson 55
#4 FDU-Florham 53
  Kean 53
#13 Montclair State 48
#15 Rutgers-Camden 46
#24 Rutgers-Newark 43
#44 Stockton 40
#52 New Jersey City 39
#114 Stevens 34
#149 Rowan 31

Kuiper,

Given your wide and deep knowledge of D3 soccer, I'm hesitant to question your conclusions, but I will nevertheless in this instance. I don't know how long you've been watching D3 soccer. I've been a fan for 40 years. I gather you're based in the West; I'm based in the East. Both of those factors may bias my conclusions.

What I can tell you from the eye test over 40 years, is that the two conferences with the highest level of physical play overall are the NJAC and the NESCAC. Yes, they have more fouls called on them, and perhaps there's a regional refereeing factor. However, they actually commit (in both instances) many more fouls than are being called. Many more.

For example, lots of observers here would probably agree that (e.g.) Amherst just plays that way most of the time. Their players are apparently taught to foul people whenever physical contact will produce an advantage. If a foul is called, they still interrupted a play that could have (for them) a bad result. If a foul is not called, they get away with it. Rowan, formerly known as Glassboro State College, has played that way for decades--and, again, this is well known among observers here. When Messiah beat them in Glassboro for their first nattie (2000), the home fans were yelling at the officials all game long about the fouls being called against them. The officiating was spot on--early yellows for grabbing players as they ran past defenders, that sort of thing. After the game, David Brandt was asked about that in the press conference. His reply: those were fouls, and fouls are supposed to be called.

Now, don't get me wrong. Amherst and Rowan both consistently produce very talented teams that deservedly win a lot of games. They simply have styles of play that are more physical than most other teams. The conferences in which they play also have other teams in that category. If that happens routinely over many years--even for decades--you have to conclude that it originates with the coaching staff. And when conferences in general display those kinds of numbers consistently for many years, it wouldn't surprise me if the pool of referees gets used to seeing it and starts ignoring a lot of the "small stuff" and even some of the more serious infractions. They "let them play," as the saying goes.

Well that's more than my two cents, but then inflation happens and pennies are on their way into extinction. 

[nescac1]

Sorry to change it up from the endless sportsmanship discussion on the eve of three NESCAC sweet 16 games, but ...

NESCAC performance in NCAA tournament to date:

Tufts, four titles
Amherst, two titles, three runners-up, seven total Final Fours
Williams, one title, two runners-up, seven total Final Fours
Conn College, one title, one runner-up
Middlebury, one title, two total Final Fours
Bowdoin, one final four

Tufts which is peaking at the right time has a golden opportunity to tie for second all-time with five national titles (Messiah will never be caught on that metric) and show that they weren't just a product of Shapiro's excellence.  Williams has a chance to basically move into the Amherst category with an improbable national title run. Conn has a chance to cement itself as a permanent member of the D3 elite with a third title game appearance.  Bowdoin has a shot at its first title game appearance and has to feel some pressure to do well this year with Huck graduating.

What's scary for the rest of the country is this is really a transition year for NESCAC.  There were only two seniors on the first-team all-conference team, which has to be a record-low and probably by a wide margin.  Tufts, Conn, Williams, Amherst, Wesleyan, Middlebury and Bates all had impact FYs and return most of their key players, and all could be better or even significantly better next year.  NESCAC is going to be insanely loaded next season and nearly every game will be a war, with a loaded group of upperclassmen across the league, with especially strong senior groups at Tufts, Conn and Wesleyan.     

The left side of the bracket is stacked with deep tourney experience with that NESCAC group, plus 2023 champion St. Olaf and Messiah, which clearly is still to be feared while on a hot streak. 

[Sandon Mibut]

Tufts which is peaking at the right time has a golden opportunity to tie for second all-time with five national titles (Messiah will never be caught on that metric) and show that they weren't just a product of Shapiro's excellence.

Dezotell has a win % around 77% in 5 years at the helm, which I'm 99% certain is the best amongst the NESCAC coaches in that same timeframe. Clearly Tufts and Dezotell are not a byproduct of Shapiro.

Bowdoin has a shot at its first title game appearance and has to feel some pressure to do well this year with Huck graduating.

Agreed. Gonna be an exciting Conn-Bowdoin match. The two teams tied 1-1 back on 9/13/25 at Bowdoin. Bowdoin scored midway through the 1st half then Conn tied it in the 89th minute! Conn also had 4 YCs (all in the 2nd half) compared to Bowdoin's 2 YCs (one on the team and one for an individual). Minimal offensive activity: 7 shots for Conn vs 9 for Bowdoin. Conn lead in corners 6-2.

If that happens routinely over many years--even for decades--you have to conclude that it originates with the coaching staff.

Agreed. Amherst are thugs and the coach either teaches it (at worst) or allows it (at best). I looked at the stats for each of the 2 teams that made it to the Championship Game in the last 3 years (Amherst 2x, Conn, St Olaf, Chicago, Williams).

• Amherst: 37 cards, 212 fouls in 12 games. 3.1 card/gm and 17.7 fouls/gm.
• Opponents: 28 cards, 170 fouls in 12 games. 2.3 card/gm and 14.2 fouls/gm
• Conn + St Olaf + Chicago + Williams:
• 46 cards, 277 fouls in 24 games. 1.9 card/gm and 11.5 fouls/gm
• Opponents of the 4 teams listed above
• 60 cards, 299 fouls in 24 games. 2.5 cards/gm and 12.5 fouls/gm

Included above, in the final bullet point, were 2 first-round games that were major outliers: St Olaf vs Wisconsin Superior and Chicago-Birmingham which summed to 21 cards! Remove those 2 games from the equation and you're left with opponents' cards/game of 2.1 (22 games) rather than 2.5 (24 games).

We know Amherst consistently play like thugs (evidenced by them being the 3rd worst in cards across all D3 since Covid). But they get worse in the NCAA tournament.

Anyways.... go Tufts!

[Kuiper]

Good lord that is lame. I'm going to check in with some of my Midd (alum) friends to see if they have any additional info.

The team also had something like 50 cards this season.

According to the NCAA, Middlebury "only" had 41 yellows and 3 reds.  Amherst had the most yellows in the NESCAC this year - 43 - but only 1 red.

I've found, however, that cards are often a function of the league/area of the country, each of which have different ref pools.

For example, Amherst was tied for #24 in the country for yellow cards with 43 and Middlebury was tied for #38 with 41, but check out the cards and national rankings for yellow cards among New Jersey schools:

#1 Drew 58 Yellows
#3 William Paterson 55
#4 FDU-Florham 53
  Kean 53
#13 Montclair State 48
#15 Rutgers-Camden 46
#24 Rutgers-Newark 43
#44 Stockton 40
#52 New Jersey City 39
#114 Stevens 34
#149 Rowan 31

Kuiper,

Given your wide and deep knowledge of D3 soccer, I'm hesitant to question your conclusions, but I will nevertheless in this instance. I don't know how long you've been watching D3 soccer. I've been a fan for 40 years. I gather you're based in the West; I'm based in the East. Both of those factors may bias my conclusions.

What I can tell you from the eye test over 40 years, is that the two conferences with the highest level of physical play overall are the NJAC and the NESCAC. Yes, they have more fouls called on them, and perhaps there's a regional refereeing factor. However, they actually commit (in both instances) many more fouls than are being called. Many more.

For example, lots of observers here would probably agree that (e.g.) Amherst just plays that way most of the time. Their players are apparently taught to foul people whenever physical contact will produce an advantage. If a foul is called, they still interrupted a play that could have (for them) a bad result. If a foul is not called, they get away with it. Rowan, formerly known as Glassboro State College, has played that way for decades--and, again, this is well known among observers here. When Messiah beat them in Glassboro for their first nattie (2000), the home fans were yelling at the officials all game long about the fouls being called against them. The officiating was spot on--early yellows for grabbing players as they ran past defenders, that sort of thing. After the game, David Brandt was asked about that in the press conference. His reply: those were fouls, and fouls are supposed to be called.

Now, don't get me wrong. Amherst and Rowan both consistently produce very talented teams that deservedly win a lot of games. They simply have styles of play that are more physical than most other teams. The conferences in which they play also have other teams in that category. If that happens routinely over many years--even for decades--you have to conclude that it originates with the coaching staff. And when conferences in general display those kinds of numbers consistently for many years, it wouldn't surprise me if the pool of referees gets used to seeing it and starts ignoring a lot of the "small stuff" and even some of the more serious infractions. They "let them play," as the saying goes.

Well that's more than my two cents, but then inflation happens and pennies are on their way into extinction. 

Good lord that is lame. I'm going to check in with some of my Midd (alum) friends to see if they have any additional info.

The team also had something like 50 cards this season.

According to the NCAA, Middlebury "only" had 41 yellows and 3 reds.  Amherst had the most yellows in the NESCAC this year - 43 - but only 1 red.

I've found, however, that cards are often a function of the league/area of the country, each of which have different ref pools.

For example, Amherst was tied for #24 in the country for yellow cards with 43 and Middlebury was tied for #38 with 41, but check out the cards and national rankings for yellow cards among New Jersey schools:

#1 Drew 58 Yellows
#3 William Paterson 55
#4 FDU-Florham 53
  Kean 53
#13 Montclair State 48
#15 Rutgers-Camden 46
#24 Rutgers-Newark 43
#44 Stockton 40
#52 New Jersey City 39
#114 Stevens 34
#149 Rowan 31

Kuiper,

Given your wide and deep knowledge of D3 soccer, I'm hesitant to question your conclusions, but I will nevertheless in this instance. I don't know how long you've been watching D3 soccer. I've been a fan for 40 years. I gather you're based in the West; I'm based in the East. Both of those factors may bias my conclusions.

What I can tell you from the eye test over 40 years, is that the two conferences with the highest level of physical play overall are the NJAC and the NESCAC. Yes, they have more fouls called on them, and perhaps there's a regional refereeing factor. However, they actually commit (in both instances) many more fouls than are being called. Many more.

For example, lots of observers here would probably agree that (e.g.) Amherst just plays that way most of the time. Their players are apparently taught to foul people whenever physical contact will produce an advantage. If a foul is called, they still interrupted a play that could have (for them) a bad result. If a foul is not called, they get away with it. Rowan, formerly known as Glassboro State College, has played that way for decades--and, again, this is well known among observers here. When Messiah beat them in Glassboro for their first nattie (2000), the home fans were yelling at the officials all game long about the fouls being called against them. The officiating was spot on--early yellows for grabbing players as they ran past defenders, that sort of thing. After the game, David Brandt was asked about that in the press conference. His reply: those were fouls, and fouls are supposed to be called.

Now, don't get me wrong. Amherst and Rowan both consistently produce very talented teams that deservedly win a lot of games. They simply have styles of play that are more physical than most other teams. The conferences in which they play also have other teams in that category. If that happens routinely over many years--even for decades--you have to conclude that it originates with the coaching staff. And when conferences in general display those kinds of numbers consistently for many years, it wouldn't surprise me if the pool of referees gets used to seeing it and starts ignoring a lot of the "small stuff" and even some of the more serious infractions. They "let them play," as the saying goes.

Well that's more than my two cents, but then inflation happens and pennies are on their way into extinction. 

I think you may have been seeing my post in a light different than it was intended, which is no doubt due to my failure to adequately communicate my point.

I wasn't trying to say that NESCAC or NJAC teams weren't physical and didn't foul quite a bit, but to point out that calling fouls and giving out cards is often a function of referee norms, which might explain why NJAC schools received considerably more yellow cards than NESCAC schools despite the fact that teams in both leagues are pretty physical.

To elaborate, consider this paradox:  NJAC schools lead NESCAC schools in receiving yellow cards by a pretty wide margin (there are 4 NJAC schools in the top ten for most yellow cards and 6 in the top 20, and zero NESCAC schools in the top 20 and only 1 - Amherst - in the top 25 and only one additional NESCAC - Middlebury - in the top 40), but NESCAC schools commit more fouls by a pretty wide margin (there are 5 NESCAC schools in the top ten for most fouls per game, but zero NJAC schools).  It's certainly possible that NJAC yellows are for things that are not fouls (e.g., dissent), while NESCAC fouls are all clean fouls and none that involve reckless or persistent infringement, but I doubt that. 

My hypothesis is that NESCAC refs either have a higher bar for yellows or are hesitant because there are reputational sanctions from the coaches or AD's in terms of their influence on ref assignments that dissuade them from going to their pockets frequently.  The absence of yellows then leads to more fouls because the sanction is insufficient deterrence.  NJAC referees, by contrast, may believe that fouls will get out of hand if they don't show some quick yellows, which makes them go to their pockets more quickly than NESCAC referees and causes players to ease up on their fouling and/or allows the referees to let more physical play go for longer without calling fouls since the refs have established a line for how much physicality they are willing to tolerate.

Saying that regional referee norms influence card counts doesn't mean that there aren't teams in every league that are coached to push the envelope on physicality.  Sometimes, coaches initially start doing that to dig a team out of a hole because of a talent deficiency etc and it becomes their identity.  One interesting development I have been tracking is with Lewis & Clark, which hasn't won a game since 2022 when they re-started the program after shutting it down in the early 1990s.  This year, they assigned one coach to be responsible for the men's team rather than having a joint coaching staff for the men's and women's teams as they had the first three years.  All of a sudden, Lewis & Clark's yellow cards increased from 36 to 47 and red cards increased from 2 to 7.  They still didn't win any games, but they tied 2 games in NWC play for the first time and I suspect that he is pushing them to be a lot more more physical and some of the players are responding. 





   


 

[camosfan]

NJ has better reffs than the NESCAC area, I live in NJ and is a NESCAC fan, I have witnessed some horrible call in NESCAC games.