Playoffs 2013

[footballfan413]

Hazzben has been a very knowledgeable poster on the D-III boards. 

However, he is a bit "sensitive" when it comes to Bethel.  Therefore, he has been hyper-vigilant when it comes to calling teams out for being "one dimensional", or "run heavy". 

The two teams that came to Alliance from Bethel couldn't throw the ball if their life depended on it.  And their play-off life DID depend on it.  They rolled through lesser teams until they could play a team that could stop the run. 

BOINK!!!!  Done.......

What I was talking about, what 413 was affirming (and then better clarifying) was that to play the elite teams in the last few rounds (semi's/stagg) of the play-offs, you need to be BALANCED. 

Defenses have escalated their games (mainly with the speed) greatly since even the late 90's/early 00's.

Ah....."my moment of Zen."   
   I thought his motivation may have been because he is a MIAC poster...........
or because I am a woman???   

Just having a little fun, HB.

[hazzben]

However, he is a bit "sensitive" when it comes to Bethel.  Therefore, he has been hyper-vigilant when it comes to calling teams out for being "one dimensional", or "run heavy". 

The two teams that came to Alliance from Bethel couldn't throw the ball if their life depended on it.  And their play-off life DID depend on it.  They rolled through lesser teams until they could play a team that could stop the run. 

BOINK!!!!  Done.......

What I was talking about, what 413 was affirming (and then better clarifying) was that to play the elite teams in the last few rounds (semi's/stagg) of the play-offs, you need to be BALANCED. 

Defenses have escalated their games (mainly with the speed) greatly since even the late 90's/early 00's.

There's actually zero 'Bethel sensitivity' here. Bethel is very balanced this year and actually probably a little more pass than run oriented.

I coached on the first Bethel team that lost to Mount in the semis (inside backers). I will definitely concede we didn't have the horses to beat that Mount team. But it wasn't just on the Oline and backfield. It was in the secondary against Garcon and Shorts, et al. It does often get overlooked that Wetzell, MIAC MVP quartback and the guy that our offense and zone read scheme ran through wasn't on the field. He blew out his throwing shoulder v. Central in the 4th quarter. He tried to make a go, but was a shell of himself and got pulled after the first possession. Do we win if he plays...not a chance! But you can ask the Johnnie and Tommie boys (Caruso is actually a big Wetzel fan I hear, seriously) about Wetzel, he was a beast and actually had a canon for an arm. His limitation was touch. Game is a respectable loss if he plays. It completely unhinged what we could do offensively. The team Mount saw was even less balanced than our typically unbalanced scheme 

So you'll hear no argument from me that those run dominant Bethel teams couldn't win the deep playoff games. They didn't & couldn't.

The bolded section is where I take issue. There's just a bit of chronological snobbery (head nod to C.S. Lewis here) involved in this statement.

Are defenses faster today? Yes, I think so. But this overlooks the real issue: are D3 defenses faster than those defenses Nebraska was dominating in the 90's/early 00's and Georgia Southern (yes, Emma, their last Title was 00...but they went away from the option the next year, sucked royally, just got back to it a few years back and have made two deep runs before running into the NDSU buzz saw - ask KState how good NDSU is)? No chance. So if those teams could do it against faster, stronger, bigger and more athletic defenses, it bears out that it's possible a team could do it at the d3 level today. I'm sorry, but there are no Ray Lewis' on the field like Nebraska was beating in '94.

To Emma's point that today's D's are simply better prepared. I don't buy this at all. Those Nebraska teams were facing Miami, Florida, FSU & Tennessee teams that had a month to prepare to stop those option attacks. No amount of preparation was going to unhinge what they were trying to do.

I think the bigger point is that you have to have perfect balance in all phases to win this way. You have to have an elite D (this is how Osborne teams got over the hump...not offensive changes, but infusing more team speed on D v. the Florida teams). Because you're right, if you get behind big, a running team is in trouble. You've got to have great special teams. (Bethel in 06 had zero - shaking my head in shame - kicking game...like couldn't make an Xpoint bad  ).

I'm not saying it's easy or the traditional route to win this way. Not...at...all. You have to be incredibly good at what you're trying to do. But it's possible, even if not the easiest or most conventional route. That's all I'm saying and I'll push back when it seems like people make it out to be impossible. On the flip side is Peyton Manning and the Colts. It's not easy, conventional or likely you can win in the NFL with a pass dominant team. But hey, he got it to work once !  (cards on the table...I'm a Brady guy through and through)

Hope there is no hard feelings, Hazzben.  Emma can tell you, I have no problem mixing it up with the boys, especially, when it comes to football. 

ZERO hard feelings. I like a little back and forth. And I'm glad we've got some female voices in the mix. Especially a proud mama like yourself. It brings a different flavor to things.

[wartknight]

However, he is a bit "sensitive" when it comes to Bethel.  Therefore, he has been hyper-vigilant when it comes to calling teams out for being "one dimensional", or "run heavy". 

The two teams that came to Alliance from Bethel couldn't throw the ball if their life depended on it.  And their play-off life DID depend on it.  They rolled through lesser teams until they could play a team that could stop the run. 

BOINK!!!!  Done.......

What I was talking about, what 413 was affirming (and then better clarifying) was that to play the elite teams in the last few rounds (semi's/stagg) of the play-offs, you need to be BALANCED. 

Defenses have escalated their games (mainly with the speed) greatly since even the late 90's/early 00's.

There's actually zero 'Bethel sensitivity' here. Bethel is very balanced this year and actually probably a little more pass than run oriented.

I coached on the first Bethel team that lost to Mount in the semis (inside backers). I will definitely concede we didn't have the horses to beat that Mount team. But it wasn't just on the Oline and backfield. It was in the secondary against Garcon and Shorts, et al. It does often get overlooked that Wetzell, MIAC MVP quartback and the guy that our offense and zone read scheme ran through wasn't on the field. He blew out his throwing shoulder v. Central in the 4th quarter. He tried to make a go, but was a shell of himself and got pulled after the first possession. Do we win if he plays...not a chance! But you can ask the Johnnie and Tommie boys (Caruso is actually a big Wetzel fan I hear, seriously) about Wetzel, he was a beast and actually had a canon for an arm. His limitation was touch. Game is a respectable loss if he plays. It completely unhinged what we could do offensively. The team Mount saw was even less balanced than our typically unbalanced scheme 

So you'll hear no argument from me that those run dominant Bethel teams couldn't win the deep playoff games. They didn't & couldn't.

The bolded section is where I take issue. There's just a bit of chronological snobbery (head nod to C.S. Lewis here) involved in this statement.

Are defenses faster today? Yes, I think so. But this overlooks the real issue: are D3 defenses faster than those defenses Nebraska was dominating in the 90's/early 00's and Georgia Southern (yes, Emma, their last Title was 00...but they went away from the option the next year, sucked royally, just got back to it a few years back and have made two deep runs before running into the NDSU buzz saw - ask KState how good NDSU is)? No chance. So if those teams could do it against faster, stronger, bigger and more athletic defenses, it bears out that it's possible a team could do it at the d3 level today. I'm sorry, but there are no Ray Lewis' on the field like Nebraska was beating in '94.

To Emma's point that today's D's are simply better prepared. I don't buy this at all. Those Nebraska teams were facing Miami, Florida, FSU & Tennessee teams that had a month to prepare to stop those option attacks. No amount of preparation was going to unhinge what they were trying to do.

I think the bigger point is that you have to have perfect balance in all phases to win this way. You have to have an elite D (this is how Osborne teams got over the hump...not offensive changes, but infusing more team speed on D v. the Florida teams). Because you're right, if you get behind big, a running team is in trouble. You've got to have great special teams. (Bethel in 06 had zero - shaking my head in shame - kicking game...like couldn't make an Xpoint bad  ).

I'm not saying it's easy or the traditional route to win this way. Not...at...all. You have to be incredibly good at what you're trying to do. But it's possible, even if not the easiest or most conventional route. That's all I'm saying and I'll push back when it seems like people make it out to be impossible. On the flip side is Peyton Manning and the Colts. It's not easy, conventional or likely you can win in the NFL with a pass dominant team. But hey, he got it to work once !  (cards on the table...I'm a Brady guy through and through)

Hope there is no hard feelings, Hazzben.  Emma can tell you, I have no problem mixing it up with the boys, especially, when it comes to football. 

ZERO hard feelings. I like a little back and forth. And I'm glad we've got some female voices in the mix. Especially a proud mama like yourself. It brings a different flavor to things.

HB, I won't hold that against you!

[footballfan413]

However, he is a bit "sensitive" when it comes to Bethel.  Therefore, he has been hyper-vigilant when it comes to calling teams out for being "one dimensional", or "run heavy". 

The two teams that came to Alliance from Bethel couldn't throw the ball if their life depended on it.  And their play-off life DID depend on it.  They rolled through lesser teams until they could play a team that could stop the run. 

BOINK!!!!  Done.......

What I was talking about, what 413 was affirming (and then better clarifying) was that to play the elite teams in the last few rounds (semi's/stagg) of the play-offs, you need to be BALANCED. 

Defenses have escalated their games (mainly with the speed) greatly since even the late 90's/early 00's.

There's actually zero 'Bethel sensitivity' here. Bethel is very balanced this year and actually probably a little more pass than run oriented.

I coached on the first Bethel team that lost to Mount in the semis (inside backers). I will definitely concede we didn't have the horses to beat that Mount team. But it wasn't just on the Oline and backfield. It was in the secondary against Garcon and Shorts, et al. It does often get overlooked that Wetzell, MIAC MVP quartback and the guy that our offense and zone read scheme ran through wasn't on the field. He blew out his throwing shoulder v. Central in the 4th quarter. He tried to make a go, but was a shell of himself and got pulled after the first possession. Do we win if he plays...not a chance! But you can ask the Johnnie and Tommie boys (Caruso is actually a big Wetzel fan I hear, seriously) about Wetzel, he was a beast and actually had a canon for an arm. His limitation was touch. Game is a respectable loss if he plays. It completely unhinged what we could do offensively. The team Mount saw was even less balanced than our typically unbalanced scheme 

So you'll hear no argument from me that those run dominant Bethel teams couldn't win the deep playoff games. They didn't & couldn't.

The bolded section is where I take issue. There's just a bit of chronological snobbery (head nod to C.S. Lewis here) involved in this statement.

Are defenses faster today? Yes, I think so. But this overlooks the real issue: are D3 defenses faster than those defenses Nebraska was dominating in the 90's/early 00's and Georgia Southern (yes, Emma, their last Title was 00...but they went away from the option the next year, sucked royally, just got back to it a few years back and have made two deep runs before running into the NDSU buzz saw - ask KState how good NDSU is)? No chance. So if those teams could do it against faster, stronger, bigger and more athletic defenses, it bears out that it's possible a team could do it at the d3 level today. I'm sorry, but there are no Ray Lewis' on the field like Nebraska was beating in '94.

To Emma's point that today's D's are simply better prepared. I don't buy this at all. Those Nebraska teams were facing Miami, Florida, FSU & Tennessee teams that had a month to prepare to stop those option attacks. No amount of preparation was going to unhinge what they were trying to do.

I think the bigger point is that you have to have perfect balance in all phases to win this way. You have to have an elite D (this is how Osborne teams got over the hump...not offensive changes, but infusing more team speed on D v. the Florida teams). Because you're right, if you get behind big, a running team is in trouble. You've got to have great special teams. (Bethel in 06 had zero - shaking my head in shame - kicking game...like couldn't make an Xpoint bad  ).

I'm not saying it's easy or the traditional route to win this way. Not...at...all. You have to be incredibly good at what you're trying to do. But it's possible, even if not the easiest or most conventional route. That's all I'm saying and I'll push back when it seems like people make it out to be impossible. On the flip side is Peyton Manning and the Colts. It's not easy, conventional or likely you can win in the NFL with a pass dominant team. But hey, he got it to work once !  (cards on the table...I'm a Brady guy through and through)

Hope there is no hard feelings, Hazzben.  Emma can tell you, I have no problem mixing it up with the boys, especially, when it comes to football. 

ZERO hard feelings. I like a little back and forth. And I'm glad we've got some female voices in the mix. Especially a proud mama like yourself. It brings a different flavor to things.

Linebacker coach, huh?   You are a man after my own heart.     Yes, a proud mama of a former Warhawk defensive player.  I don't know why we have wasted all this time talking about whether it is possible to win championships with or without a balanced offense.  Everybody knows..........

DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS!!!!    

Wishing all a wonderful Thanksgiving.  Safe travels! 

[hazzben]

(cards on the table...I'm a Brady guy through and through)

HB, I won't hold that against you!

Ha! It doesn't mean I wear UGGs...I swear, it doesn't!

[WarhawkDad]

Hazzben has been a very knowledgeable poster on the D-III boards. 

However, he is a bit "sensitive" when it comes to Bethel.  Therefore, he has been hyper-vigilant when it comes to calling teams out for being "one dimensional", or "run heavy". 

The two teams that came to Alliance from Bethel couldn't throw the ball if their life depended on it.  And their play-off life DID depend on it.  They rolled through lesser teams until they could play a team that could stop the run. 

BOINK!!!!  Done.......

What I was talking about, what 413 was affirming (and then better clarifying) was that to play the elite teams in the last few rounds (semi's/stagg) of the play-offs, you need to be BALANCED. 

Defenses have escalated their games (mainly with the speed) greatly since even the late 90's/early 00's.

Ah....."my moment of Zen."   
   I thought his motivation may have been because he is a MIAC poster...........
or because I am a woman???   

Just having a little fun, HB.

You're a Woman?       

LOL, while I knew that, so many don't because of your great knowledge and overall grasp of D3 football.

WHD

[bleedpurple]

Hazzben has been a very knowledgeable poster on the D-III boards. 

However, he is a bit "sensitive" when it comes to Bethel.  Therefore, he has been hyper-vigilant when it comes to calling teams out for being "one dimensional", or "run heavy". 

The two teams that came to Alliance from Bethel couldn't throw the ball if their life depended on it.  And their play-off life DID depend on it.  They rolled through lesser teams until they could play a team that could stop the run. 

BOINK!!!!  Done.......

What I was talking about, what 413 was affirming (and then better clarifying) was that to play the elite teams in the last few rounds (semi's/stagg) of the play-offs, you need to be BALANCED. 

Defenses have escalated their games (mainly with the speed) greatly since even the late 90's/early 00's.

Ah....."my moment of Zen."   
   I thought his motivation may have been because he is a MIAC poster...........
or because I am a woman???   

Just having a little fun, HB.

You're a Woman?       

LOL, while I knew that, so many don't because of your great knowledge and overall grasp of D3 football.

WHD

Now THAT made me laugh out loud. I think you just dissed women everywhere (except 413) without even trying to! 

[ExTartanPlayer]

I coached on the first Bethel team that lost to Mount in the semis (inside backers).

Hope there is no hard feelings, Hazzben.  Emma can tell you, I have no problem mixing it up with the boys, especially, when it comes to football. 

ZERO hard feelings. I like a little back and forth. And I'm glad we've got some female voices in the mix. Especially a proud mama like yourself. It brings a different flavor to things.

Linebacker coach, huh?   You are a man after my own heart.

He's too modest to admit it, but HB played a little linebacker in his day, too.  Even made a few tackles now and then.  I think the RB's tripped and fell over his body in the pile.

[footballfan413]

Hazzben has been a very knowledgeable poster on the D-III boards. 

However, he is a bit "sensitive" when it comes to Bethel.  Therefore, he has been hyper-vigilant when it comes to calling teams out for being "one dimensional", or "run heavy". 

The two teams that came to Alliance from Bethel couldn't throw the ball if their life depended on it.  And their play-off life DID depend on it.  They rolled through lesser teams until they could play a team that could stop the run. 

BOINK!!!!  Done.......

What I was talking about, what 413 was affirming (and then better clarifying) was that to play the elite teams in the last few rounds (semi's/stagg) of the play-offs, you need to be BALANCED. 

Defenses have escalated their games (mainly with the speed) greatly since even the late 90's/early 00's.

Ah....."my moment of Zen."   
   I thought his motivation may have been because he is a MIAC poster...........
or because I am a woman???   

Just having a little fun, HB.

You're a Woman?       

LOL, while I knew that, so many don't because of your great knowledge and overall grasp of D3 football.

WHD

Now THAT made me laugh out loud. I think you just dissed women everywhere (except 413) without even trying to! 

Thanks, WHD! 
Bleed, we all know how, "special," and rare a woman who loves football, as much as I do, is.     

 
    Now enough of this, "I am woman," crap.  I need to go check my fantasy football line up this morning and bake a pie!       

You boys and your families have a great Turkey Day and GO WARHAWKS! 

[hazzben]

I think the RB's tripped and fell over his body in the pile.

Yep...I jumped on the pile a few times as well  It's amazing how many tackles you get when you make sure you're the last one to get up from the ground 

[wartknight]

I think the RB's tripped and fell over his body in the pile.

Yep...I jumped on the pile a few times as well  It's amazing how many tackles you get when you make sure you're the last one to get up from the ground 

And if you have an in with the stat guy!

[kiko]

How many OAC pool C teams need to be upset in the first round before everyone realizes the OAC is far over rated?!?! There's Mount and nobody else.

second best conference in the nation...nope.

That argument works if you limit it to the past 2 years.

If you expand it to the fact that between 1999 and last year, an OAC team had been eliminated from the playoffs by a team other than Mount Union only once (B-W in a 16-12 loss to Wheaton 2003, IIRC), then you get where the reputation comes from.

It's fine if you want to argue that previous great runs by Capital, etc. are ancient history, but then you'd also have to note that the OAC was not No. 2 in the most recent conference rankings.

http://www.d3football.com/columns/around-the-nation/2013/2013-conference-rankings

They're No. 4.

I completely understand, and agree, that the the OAC hasn't been a great conference the last couple years.   However their reputation is built on LONG history of competing on a national stage.  I 100% get that the most recent showings have been poor, but those of us in the OAC have openly acknowledged that the conference has been down the last couple of seasons.


OAC losses to Mount in the playoffs:
2006 - Capital lost to Mount in Round 3 (2 wins)
2005 - Capital lost to Mount in the Round 3 (2 wins)
2002  -  John Carroll  lost to Mount in the semi-finals (3 wins)
2000  - Ohio Northern lost to Mount in Round 1 (0 wins)
1999 - Ohio Northern lost to Mount in Round 2 (1 win)
1997 –  John Carroll lost to Mount in Round 2 (1 win)

The '05 and '06 Capital teams lost to Mount in the playoffs by 3 points each time and were in many people's eyes the best team Mount played all year.  Including UWW in the Stagg.

OAC losses against someone else:
Baldwin Wallace to Wheaton in 2nd round of 2003 (1 win)
Capital at Whitewater in Round 1 of 2007 (UWW was Nat Champs) (0 wins)
Otterbein to Franklin in 2008 round 1 (Franklin beat NCC in 2nd round, lost to Wheaton in regional final) (0 wins)
Heidelberg to Wittenberg in 2012 (easily the worst of the OAC losses) (0 wins)
John Carroll to St John Fisher in 2013 (0 wins)

Overall, the 2nd place OAC team is a respectable 9-11 in the playoffs.    Remove their losses to Mount, they're a very respectable 9-5.   Not stellar, but not too shabby either.

I fully realize we're not the WIAC, CCIW, NWC or E-8 when it comes to depth and/or parity, and I know it's hard for the rest of the nation to realize, but the OAC is has been HISTORICALLY a little bit more than just Mount Union and a bunch of crap teams.

Catching up on this a couple of days later...

It doesn't really change the arguments for-versus-against, but unless I am missing something, there is one other OAC defeat-versus-other.  In 2010, Ohio Northern beat Witt in the first round and lost to North Central in the second.

[K-Mack]

When you factor in the top of a conference (Wesley would change the UMAC's rank) plus the middle and the bottom, plus other ways to assess strength or level of competition, you get what we've put out.

See, I don't think it would intrinsically, taking the entire D-3 universe and the UMAC data set as a whole. Move it up a skosh - yeah - but it wouldn't change it in a profound and meaningful way. But I don't think we'll ever have a test case unless UMHB continues to diverge from the rest of the ASC.

Agreed. Adding Wesley to the UMAC would move the conference up a few spots, but probably not above the HCAC. While Wesley is better than Franklin, the rest of the UMAC is worse than the rest of the HCAC.

I'm okay with a skosh. I just didn't want to imply it would have no impact.