D3Boards.Com Soccer Top 20 Fan Poll

[jknezek]

The two that I don't get are Gustavus Adolphus and Catholic.  But otherwise, I don't have any disagreement necessarily with the teams.  Am surprised by both Luther and Denison being dropped.  I wouldn't have seen that.

As always, great job @jknezek.

SC.

Except for GAC, those teams are all 25-RV. In, out, there just isn't much room. But I'll take a stab at my reasoning since I have GAC and Catholic in and Luther and Denison out.

Catholic is tied for 25th. Basically interchangeable with 10 other teams. But has ties with Montclair St (RV) and Gettysburg (13). The Stevenson tie is pretty ugly, but they played 30 mins a man down. The red card was 2 yellows, one that resulted in a free kick that scored, one that resulted in a penalty kick that scored. So kind of an ugly double whammy.

On the other hand, Catholic hasn't lost, has a respectable SoS (71), and an above 80% winning percentage. I don't think they are a bad choice for the last few spots in the poll but definitely could be one of several others.

As for GAC, I'm not sure why you don't think they belong middle to bottom of the poll. The have convincing wins over Loras and St. John's, two teams that have either been in the poll or RV, they haven't lost, and have a mid level SoS. Ties against 4-1-3 Wartburg and 4-2-2 Bethany Lutheran. It's not like they've had a really bad result and they have 2 good ones. That's more than a lot of teams right now.

Luther went 0-1-1 for the week. When you are sitting at the bottom of the poll, that's a hard week. Sure it's a GREAT competitive loss to Chicago, but the let-down tie to a solid Dubuque team compounds a rough stat line when other teams are winning. Generally speaking, you win your way in to the poll. Luther didn't win this week, and for a team at the bottom of the poll, that's usually a bad sign. But it's also possibly temporary, as they are likely to get 2 wins this week, with a matchup with Loras next week.

Denison went 1-1 and lost, at home, to JCU who is out of the poll. They are getting a lot of mileage out of single tie with Brandeis who is barely holding on to a spot and I'm not sure how they are except it's hard to drop a team from 8 to out. Regardless, looking for a signature win and I don't see one. There was a chance hosting JCU this week, but it didn't happen. Wilmington is a nice win but lots of teams have wins over 4/5-3/2 type teams. Otterbein and Witt are solid opponents this week, more of the Wilmington type resume, so definitely a chance to win their way back in. But life in the bottom 10 spots is precarious with every loss because there are so many options.

[SimpleCoach]

The two that I don't get are Gustavus Adolphus and Catholic.  But otherwise, I don't have any disagreement necessarily with the teams.  Am surprised by both Luther and Denison being dropped.  I wouldn't have seen that.

As always, great job @jknezek.

SC.

Except for GAC, those teams are all 25-RV. In, out, there just isn't much room. But I'll take a stab at my reasoning since I have GAC and Catholic in and Luther and Denison out.

Catholic is tied for 25th. Basically interchangeable with 10 other teams. But has ties with Montclair St (RV) and Gettysburg (13). The Stevenson tie is pretty ugly, but they played 30 mins a man down. The red card was 2 yellows, one that resulted in a free kick that scored, one that resulted in a penalty kick that scored. So kind of an ugly double whammy.

On the other hand, Catholic hasn't lost, has a respectable SoS (71), and an above 80% winning percentage. I don't think they are a bad choice for the last few spots in the poll but definitely could be one of several others.

As for GAC, I'm not sure why you don't think they belong middle to bottom of the poll. The have convincing wins over Loras and St. John's, two teams that have either been in the poll or RV, they haven't lost, and have a mid level SoS. Ties against 4-1-3 Wartburg and 4-2-2 Bethany Lutheran. It's not like they've had a really bad result and they have 2 good ones. That's more than a lot of teams right now.

Luther went 0-1-1 for the week. When you are sitting at the bottom of the poll, that's a hard week. Sure it's a GREAT competitive loss to Chicago, but the let-down tie to a solid Dubuque team compounds a rough stat line when other teams are winning. Generally speaking, you win your way in to the poll. Luther didn't win this week, and for a team at the bottom of the poll, that's usually a bad sign. But it's also possibly temporary, as they are likely to get 2 wins this week, with a matchup with Loras next week.

Denison went 1-1 and lost, at home, to JCU who is out of the poll. They are getting a lot of mileage out of single tie with Brandeis who is barely holding on to a spot and I'm not sure how they are except it's hard to drop a team from 8 to out. Regardless, looking for a signature win and I don't see one. There was a chance hosting JCU this week, but it didn't happen. Wilmington is a nice win but lots of teams have wins over 4/5-3/2 type teams. Otterbein and Witt are solid opponents this week, more of the Wilmington type resume, so definitely a chance to win their way back in. But life in the bottom 10 spots is precarious with every loss because there are so many options.

Am going to watch GAC against Loras again to see what I missed.   Yeah, I get it.  When putting together my poll, was thinking I was trying to come up with a Top 25 that had 35 teams in it. 

Thanks again @jknezek.

SC.

[jknezek]

The two that I don't get are Gustavus Adolphus and Catholic.  But otherwise, I don't have any disagreement necessarily with the teams.  Am surprised by both Luther and Denison being dropped.  I wouldn't have seen that.

As always, great job @jknezek.

SC.

Except for GAC, those teams are all 25-RV. In, out, there just isn't much room. But I'll take a stab at my reasoning since I have GAC and Catholic in and Luther and Denison out.

Catholic is tied for 25th. Basically interchangeable with 10 other teams. But has ties with Montclair St (RV) and Gettysburg (13). The Stevenson tie is pretty ugly, but they played 30 mins a man down. The red card was 2 yellows, one that resulted in a free kick that scored, one that resulted in a penalty kick that scored. So kind of an ugly double whammy.

On the other hand, Catholic hasn't lost, has a respectable SoS (71), and an above 80% winning percentage. I don't think they are a bad choice for the last few spots in the poll but definitely could be one of several others.

As for GAC, I'm not sure why you don't think they belong middle to bottom of the poll. The have convincing wins over Loras and St. John's, two teams that have either been in the poll or RV, they haven't lost, and have a mid level SoS. Ties against 4-1-3 Wartburg and 4-2-2 Bethany Lutheran. It's not like they've had a really bad result and they have 2 good ones. That's more than a lot of teams right now.

Luther went 0-1-1 for the week. When you are sitting at the bottom of the poll, that's a hard week. Sure it's a GREAT competitive loss to Chicago, but the let-down tie to a solid Dubuque team compounds a rough stat line when other teams are winning. Generally speaking, you win your way in to the poll. Luther didn't win this week, and for a team at the bottom of the poll, that's usually a bad sign. But it's also possibly temporary, as they are likely to get 2 wins this week, with a matchup with Loras next week.

Denison went 1-1 and lost, at home, to JCU who is out of the poll. They are getting a lot of mileage out of single tie with Brandeis who is barely holding on to a spot and I'm not sure how they are except it's hard to drop a team from 8 to out. Regardless, looking for a signature win and I don't see one. There was a chance hosting JCU this week, but it didn't happen. Wilmington is a nice win but lots of teams have wins over 4/5-3/2 type teams. Otterbein and Witt are solid opponents this week, more of the Wilmington type resume, so definitely a chance to win their way back in. But life in the bottom 10 spots is precarious with every loss because there are so many options.

Am going to watch GAC against Loras again to see what I missed.   Yeah, I get it.  When putting together my poll, was thinking I was trying to come up with a Top 25 that had 35 teams in it. 

Thanks again @jknezek.

SC.

Those were just my thoughts. I think there is merit to Denison, Luther and probably more than 15 others! Sometimes I find votes interesting, but rarely do they strike me as out of line. Too many teams, too many games, too many stats, too many ways to look at them. You can always find something to hold on to, good or bad. I appreciate your participation and all that you do here and on your channel!

[Gregory Sager]

The two that I don't get are Gustavus Adolphus and Catholic.  But otherwise, I don't have any disagreement necessarily with the teams.  Am surprised by both Luther and Denison being dropped.  I wouldn't have seen that.

As always, great job @jknezek.

SC.

Except for GAC, those teams are all 25-RV. In, out, there just isn't much room. But I'll take a stab at my reasoning since I have GAC and Catholic in and Luther and Denison out.

Catholic is tied for 25th. Basically interchangeable with 10 other teams. But has ties with Montclair St (RV) and Gettysburg (13). The Stevenson tie is pretty ugly, but they played 30 mins a man down. The red card was 2 yellows, one that resulted in a free kick that scored, one that resulted in a penalty kick that scored. So kind of an ugly double whammy.

On the other hand, Catholic hasn't lost, has a respectable SoS (71), and an above 80% winning percentage. I don't think they are a bad choice for the last few spots in the poll but definitely could be one of several others.

As for GAC, I'm not sure why you don't think they belong middle to bottom of the poll. The have convincing wins over Loras and St. John's, two teams that have either been in the poll or RV, they haven't lost, and have a mid level SoS. Ties against 4-1-3 Wartburg and 4-2-2 Bethany Lutheran. It's not like they've had a really bad result and they have 2 good ones. That's more than a lot of teams right now.

Luther went 0-1-1 for the week. When you are sitting at the bottom of the poll, that's a hard week. Sure it's a GREAT competitive loss to Chicago, but the let-down tie to a solid Dubuque team compounds a rough stat line when other teams are winning. Generally speaking, you win your way in to the poll. Luther didn't win this week, and for a team at the bottom of the poll, that's usually a bad sign. But it's also possibly temporary, as they are likely to get 2 wins this week, with a matchup with Loras next week.

Denison went 1-1 and lost, at home, to JCU who is out of the poll. They are getting a lot of mileage out of single tie with Brandeis who is barely holding on to a spot and I'm not sure how they are except it's hard to drop a team from 8 to out. Regardless, looking for a signature win and I don't see one. There was a chance hosting JCU this week, but it didn't happen. Wilmington is a nice win but lots of teams have wins over 4/5-3/2 type teams. Otterbein and Witt are solid opponents this week, more of the Wilmington type resume, so definitely a chance to win their way back in. But life in the bottom 10 spots is precarious with every loss because there are so many options.

I had GAC and Catholic in, and Luther and Denison out, so your reasoning mirrors mine. I actually counted Catholic's draw against Stevenson as a plus, because even though Stevenson clearly isn't very good, the Cardinals not only got a result on the road, they did so while playing a man down for 28 minutes -- and managed to level with a shortie in the process. I respect a team that can have a player get handed two lemons and then can still manage to make lemonade.

[PaulNewman]

So I had the 7 NESCACs...that's got to be some kind of record, and we'll see if the "real" poll tomorrow follows suit which I presume will happen.  Love the back to back theme as they really are so even and hard to separate.  I had Wesleyan and Hamilton #7 and #8, Tufts and Amherst #14 and #15, Midd and Bowdoin #17 and #18.  My one exception was Conn Coll at #12 who I put in between two teams I probably rated higher than some others, Oneonta at #11 and GAC at #13.  My one glaring error was Tufts, in Tufts' favor, because I was only factoring in one loss and blanked out on the Jumbos already having two NESCAC losses which made me overvalue the win AT Amherst.  Then there's Williams who I think is pretty good and I can't get a good handle on Colby (up 2-0 on Amherst deep into 2nd half but outshot like 34-4 which partly makes sense because Amherst was chasing the game, but still 34-4 is a ton). 

For me this week, there is a very clear top 3 (my usuals), then Kenyon who I'm not sure yet if they are closer to those three or more in the next group with Hopkins, Stevens, Wesleyan, etc.  I have Hopkins at #5 which feels high given already having two draws this early in the season but they also have some of the more impressive wins (Rowan, Cortland, MW, Swat).  Stevens for me is the mystery man at the party...what is he gonna look like when he takes his mask off.

I started to have trouble after Wes and Hamilton and settled on W&L and Calvin at #9 and #10.  In the middle of a bunch of NESCACs I have GAC at #13 and St Thomas at #16.  The latter ARE hard teams to rank, and I tend to give the less publicized teams (often meaning North and West Regions) a small boost in close calls to counter my own and the groupthink's implicit bias.  Some often point to the lack of success of teams from these regions (relatively speaking) in the NCAA tournament as proof that maybe they aren't so deserving, but I watch a team like Redlands go head to head with Calvin and lead three times before a very narrow loss (and other similar scenarios) which leads me to believe that the quality of soccer in the North and West is better than some of us East Coasters think.  It's also not easy to decipher when a team's relatively lower SoS is due to regional challenges versus just plain and simple weak scheduling.

Anyway, moving on the teams I have in that didn't make the cut...I have North Central at #19 (7-0-2 and imo a pretty good schedule including KZoo, Carleton, Concordia (Wis), Rose-Hulman, Wartburg, and Dubuque).  I have Christopher Newport at #20 (I know, they snuck in), SLU at #21 (hot team and huge win at Cortland), Willamette (see discussion above and deceptively good schedule with some good wins and still unbeaten) at #22, and I could not keep UWEC out after I waited to see what happened with Loras and the Blugolds won.  So I got 12-0 UWEC at #23 and I don't agree (despite whatever the SoS says) that their schedule has been as "soft" as advertised (UW-Platteville, Carthage, and Loras are all legit foes regardless of what their records say).  At #24 I have Rochester and then at #25 I compromised and put CMU.

That means I left out Gettysburg (imo two good draws and no signature wins), Clarkson (1-0 win over St John Fisher and 1-1 draw with Ithaca didn't do it for me and imo was less deserving than SLU), Drew (I had definitely had Drew in but then they drew with Goucher and at the bottom end of the poll these blips get you kicked into RV territory), and Catholic (same comments as Gettysburg...good draws with Montclair and Gettysburg but no clearly signature wins).  That said, Catholic was probably my #26.

As for Luther and Denison, I did feel dropping Luther out was harsh (especially after watching almost deservedly not only drawing but winning against Chicago) but I was with @jknezek's reasoning that 0-1-1 is hard to get around.  Lose to Chicago and win and instead of draw with I think Dubuque and Luther would have stayed in.  I had Denison barely out before and I couldn't put them in after the home loss to JCU.  Denison is hard too because they are needing late heroics in most of their wins but I also credit them for those like for the win this week over Wilmington (the kind of games in recent past years they would have lost).

[Kuiper]

Here's the D3soccer.com poll for comparison.  From a SCIAC perspective, I'm surprised Chapman got some votes.  They are 4-1-2 and beat La Verne 4-0 and tied Oxy 2-2, but they just lost 4-0 to Claremont-Mudd-Scripps and they only squeaked by Whittier 1-0.  I guess I should just be happy three SCIAC teams got votes at all.  It must be a few voters are like @PaulNewman and want to counter their east coast bias, plus a few voters must be from the west coast.  Wednesday's game against Cal Lutheran should be a better test for Chapman.

https://twitter.com/D3soc/status/1574788159812018178?s=20&t=cdetdhBR5Lb9XbKemyKdCQ

D3soccer.com Men's Top 25, Week 4

Through games of Sunday, September 25, 2022
#    School (1st Pl. Votes)    Record    Pts.    Prev.
1    Chicago (18)    8-0-0    990    1
2    Messiah (3)    7-0-1    943    2
3    Kenyon (2)    8-0-0    923    3
4    North Park    8-0-0    866    4
5    Stevens    7-0-1    821    5
6    Wesleyan    6-0-1    779    6
7    Johns Hopkins    6-0-2    760    7
8    Connecticut Col.    3-1-1    617    12
9    Hamilton    6-0-1    598    19
10    Amherst    5-1-2    591    11
11    Calvin    6-1-2    558    9
12    Washington & Lee    6-1-1    511    15
13    Bowdoin    5-1-1    491    8
14    Carnegie Mellon    7-0-1    469    13
15    Gustavus Adolphus    6-0-2    452    18
16    Clarkson    6-0-1    439    14
17    Oneonta State    6-0-1    390    20
18    Gettysburg    5-0-2    352    17
19    Tufts    3-2-2    339    10
20    St. Thomas (Tx.)    7-0-1    336    21
21    Rochester    5-1-1    139    —
22    Drew    8-0-1    133    —
23    Montclair State    6-1-3    114    16
24    Chris. Newport    6-1-0    103    —
25    UW-Eau Claire    12-0-0    86    —

Dropped out: No. 22 Babson, No. 23 Denison, No. 24 Franklin and Marshall, No. 25 Lynchburg

Receiving Votes: Franklin & Marshall 85, Catholic 81, Babson 66, Lynchburg 64, Willamette 56, Middlebury 54, Denison 43, Western Conn. 30, Cal Lutheran 28, Cortland State 23, North Central (Ill.) 19, Chapman 17, St. Lawrence 17, Mary Hardin-Baylor 17, Williams 16, Loras 16, Coast Guard 16, Occidental 14, Pacific Lutheran 14, MSOE 10, Mary Washington 3, York (Pa.) 3, St. Olaf 3, John Carroll 3, Ohio Northern 2

The D3soccer.com Top 25 is voted on by a panel of coaches, Sports Information Directors and D3soccer.com staff, and is published weekly.

   

[PaulNewman]

@Kuiper, thank you for continuing to jump in.  Surprised how quiet it is here right after all these polls published.

Anyway, those votes for Chapman didn't come from me.  The only West region teams in my top 25 were St Thomas and Willamette.  I feel very betrayed (kidding) by Trinity and the the West Coast Big Three of C-M-S, Redlands, and Pac Luth...and now I am forced to learn more about Oxy, Cal Luth, Mary H-B, etc...

[Hopkins92]

PN, I obviously won't speak for anyone else, but to me September polls are interesting, but most teams have barely scratched their conference schedules and it's just tough to get an overall read on things. Not that the games to date aren't instructive, just that it's still a pretty small sample size. (1/3 of the schedule, roughly, for most teams.)

[Saint of Old]

I have a deep hatred for Hamilton due to personal reasons
Still, I am so happy to see these guys get it right and compete in a very tough NESCAC which also means they are competing nationally.
Hamilton was always a quality team in the Liberty Lge (UCAA) but have found it tough the last decade and a half or so.
Great coach. Good program. We will hear alot more from them.I am.sure.

[PaulNewman]

Yes, Hopkins, I didn't express myself very well.  We are in-season and it's just quiet.  Maybe the few of us who dominate really are shutting things down, and that's certainly not my intent.  Regarding the polls, I know they mean pretty much next to nothing right now, but you would think at least a few would chime in with typical "how did you forget Team X" or "why is team Y getting so much love," etc, etc.  The only people with any back and forth are the actual pollsters responding to each other lol.

[PaulNewman]

I have a deep hatred for Hamilton due to personal reasons
Still, I am so happy to see these guys get it right and compete in a very tough NESCAC which also means they are competing nationally.
Hamilton was always a quality team in the Liberty Lge (UCAA) but have found it tough the last decade and a half or so.
Great coach. Good program. We will hear alot more from them.I am.sure.

If you don't have any teams you hate then you really aren't a fan haha.

[Saint of Old]

When they hand you your first loss in 60 games... it hurts a lifetime.

[PaulNewman]

When they hand you your first loss in 60 games... it hurts a lifetime.

I have one similar to that (as a parent).  The wound is still fresh 8 years later.  Watching your team's dream season end prematurely and against a dreaded rival while seeing your kid and his teammates sobbing uncontrollably feels like some real trauma (even though of course it's not anything remotely close to real trauma). 

[Saint of Old]

Stings after almost 2 dozen years man...
Really wish Hamilton the best though.

Perfect world, they make the sweet 16 and face SLU and I live vicariously through the boyz

[Hopkins92]

Yes, Hopkins, I didn't express myself very well.  We are in-season and it's just quiet.  Maybe the few of us who dominate really are shutting things down, and that's certainly not my intent.  Regarding the polls, I know they mean pretty much next to nothing right now, but you would think at least a few would chime in with typical "how did you forget Team X" or "why is team Y getting so much love," etc, etc.  The only people with any back and forth are the actual pollsters responding to each other lol.

But, really, you guys have all covered how thoughtful you've been on the 15-30 (I'm round up) teams, and since very few of us have the "national perspective" it's a little silly to get overly worked up.

Outside of a top 10 in Region V (which I'd still feel is pretty arbitrary after the top 7 or so, I'm not gonna come into the thread where 5 or 6 guys have made that national perspective leap and take any shots at your decisions.

It's gonna get spicy (my word of the week) when we get deep into conf. play and teams really assert themselves regionally.