MBB: USA South Conference

[Ralph Turner]

narch,

Re: post  #1528.

I will bet that the Presidents consider that option as well!

I think that both Huntingdon adn LaGrange become football powers!

[scottiedoug]

I knew this would be a good thread. 

Narch, how would you characterize the differences between the ODAC and the USASAC re academics, enrollment, and facilities?

[wilburt]

i think a great point about fisk athletics would be one about commitment, look at your facilities, if you were committed to having a quality athletic program then you would make the commitment to have clean well maintained athletic facilites (more than just the gym) and your players would not show up in uniforms that did not match like they did in the late 90s
in summary,
LET IT GO

I think a great point about Maryville academics would be one about commitment.  Look at your academics, if you were committed to having a quality academic program then you would make the commitment to obtain a PBK chapter and increase your graduation rate and your students (more than just a few) would go on to fine graduate and professional schools at a higher percentage or possibly even compete for a Fulbright or a Rhodes Scholarship in this century,

in summary,
LET IT GO 
   

[coachwgh]

Fisk's departure was an all sports except basketball thing not any particular school. 

[hasanova]

one thing is for sure...if the gsac and usasac did merge, the message board would get more active

ralph, i understand why the cac would be attractive to su from a geography standpoint, but i just don't think they'll bolt unless the cac becomes a viable football conference...if the cac adds football and it becomes apparent that su and or cnu could make 7 (or 8), then the usasac could see the exodus of both su and cnu and cua could bolt odac football for the cac...then i'd like to see mc and one other (gc, maybe or...dare i say...maryville?) join the odac - mc is a much better fit for the odac from an academics standpoint, from an enrollment standpoint, and from a facilities standpoint in my opinion - THEN all the women's colleges need to form the sewcc (southeast women's college conference), THEN the remaining usasac and gsac schools could merge (and invite fisk if they wanted)

i've got this thing figured out

Personally, I just don't see the ODAC giving the other GC (Greensboro) an invitation.  Yes, it makes a lot of sense geographically, especially for the Saturday/Sunday basketball and baseball weekends if combined with Guilford, but I just don't think some of the ODAC members see Greensboro as a good fit in other ways - same with Ferrum and Averett.  W&L, for example, already complains about an "uneven playing field" in football and basketball within the ODAC and there are already some pretty good schools in the conference.  First, I see the ODAC pushing Roanoke, Lynchburg and even Va. Wesleyan to start football teams if they lose some members (I don't think EMU will consider football from a philosophical standpoint).  Of course, if conference alignments start changing in rapid order, then all bets are out the window and it may become every man for himself.  lol

[narch]

I knew this would be a good thread. 

Narch, how would you characterize the differences between the ODAC and the USASAC re academics, enrollment, and facilities?

academics - most of the odac schools have very strong academic reputations and boast average gpa & sat scores that are higher than those of most usasac schools  - i did a spreadsheet that compared a number of academic areas generally measured by us news  (which is, admittedly, an extremely flawed publication) for usasac & odac schools which was lost with a recent computer crash, but it supported the odac "reputation" - among the private usasac schools, mc was very similar to some of the schools at the "bottom end" of the odac spectrum and was much closer to them than they were to most of the usasac schools - additionally, mc offers a diversity of academic programs that is more comprehensive than most of the other usasac schools and more similar to the offerings at a number of the odac schools

enrollment - the odac schools tend to be somewhat larger than the usasac schools - using enrollment data from d3hoops.com (which isn't entirely accurate, but still gives a general idea of relative size), there are no odac schools smaller than 1001 students (ehc) and all but vwc, hsc and ehc are between 1300 and 1917 students - in the usasac gc and fc are under 1000 students and only mc (1676) and su (1327) and cnu (over 5000) are larger than 1300

facilities - when i talk facilities, i'm talking overall campus facilities - i've heard most odac athletic facilities are on par with, or worse than the majority of the usasac athletic facilities, but the same cannot be said for the rest of their campuses...the odac schools have impressive campus facilities - while the mc campus is not one of traditional ivy covered architecture, there has been a construction boom going on in the last 10-15 years which has added approximately 12-15 buildings to the campus - other than cnu (and mpossibly su), i don't think any other usasac school can boast of such facilities growth

keep in mind that these are just one person's opinions and they aren't necessarily completely accurate opinions, at that

also keep in mind that, as a fan, i am NOT in favor of any change in the membership of the usasac unless it is necessary because of defections by current members - i think we've got a very good athletic conference comprised of solid schools and there's no need to tip the apple cart, even WITH a public school in the conference (that was for you, '85 & goose...old arguments die hard)

edit: for the purpose of the academic arguments, i think it's only fair to leave out w&l...they're in a league of their own, academically - if there is ANY school that should be looking to re-align, it's them - not sure where they would fit (the uaa schools match up from a selectivity standpoint, but they're mostly research university's, right?)

[Pat Coleman]

Our numbers are the numbers of full-time undergraduates that schools report to the federal government. I would hope they're accurate.

[hasanova]

I think Narch gave a pretty good assessment of some of the differences between the ODAC and the USASAC.   I will say up front that I am a graduate of an ODAC school, but I will try to keep my discussion as objective as possible.

In my personal travels and as a former college athlete, I have actually visited most of the ODAC and USASAC schools.  There are a couple of exceptions to every rule, of course, but I think generally speaking the ODAC schools have more of a "wow" factor about their campuses.  This is a reflection of their locations, their longevity, their history and, of course, their generally larger endowments.

Athletic facilities are a mixture.  Sometimes an ODAC school is better and sometimes a USASAC school is better.  When comparing the two schools I know best (because I live in Greensboro), I would have to give the edge to Guilford over Greensboro.   Greensboro has to play many of their sporting events at city-owned facilities because they do not have on-site venues.  They have a decent soccer/lacrosse field, but Hanes Gym is very small.  To be fair to Greensboro College, however, they have some space restrictions in their central-city urban setting.  Guilford, on the other hand, is in a western Greensboro residential area and they have over 300 acres.   For me, part of the pleasure of going to away games in the ODAC is walking through the other team's campus.  I may want to beat them on the playing field, but I always come away with a deep appreciation for their beautiful campuses and academic facilities.

Academically, and I think others will back me up, the ODAC is generally stronger.  As Narch mentioned, W&L is a tier one school in admissions and endowment, but the rest of the ODAC schools are also consistently mentioned in all the yearly reviews done by the US News & World Report, the Princeton Review, and other published rankings.  The "worst" ODAC school probably has an average SAT score in the 1050 range, while most of them are in the mid-1100's, 1200's and even 1300's.  For the ACT, expect to see most ODAC schools consistently above 23 with many 25 and up.  Contrarily, I see some of the USASAC schools (certainly not all) with average SAT scores in the 950 range and ACT scores of 19-20.  The ODAC schools send a higher percentage of students to graduate and professional schools and win other awards (Rhodes, Fulbright, etc.) with more frequency.  I would say all but one or two ODAC schools probably have larger endowments than their USASAC counterparts.  Again, chock this up to longevity and the munificence of their alumni.  There is some overlap, of course, when comparing this many schools (23), but I think most observers would have to say the generally accepted academic parameters are higher in the ODAC than in the USASAC.
 
From a tradition standpoint, I think the ODAC has more history.  W&L (named after George Washington and Robert E. Lee, for gosh sakes!) and Hampden-Sydney date to the Revolutionary War era, but many of the schools (with the exception of VWC) date to the first half of the 19th century.  Many of the movers and shakers in the colonial and antebellum (Civil War) history of the region are ODAC alumni.  President William Henry Harrison, for example, is an alumnus of Hampden-Sydney.  The Guilford campus is designated a National Historic Landmark.  I'm sure there are other examples, but those are some that quickly come to mind.  There are certainly some 19th century USASAC schools (Greensboro, for example), but most have more recent origins or have significantly changed their mission in the past 30 years.  Ferrum, for example, was elevated from JC status about 20 years ago and Averett was traditionally a college for women until 20-30 years ago.  When you think about "The Game" between HSC and RMC, now entering its 112th consecutive annual renewal,  the USASAC cannot compare.  Guilford, W&L, E&H and others have been playing football over 100 years.  With the exception of Ferrum and Maryville, most of the USASAC schools have only started football in the past 5-20 years.

This is just one man's point of view, so take it for what it's worth.  Peace.

[scottiedoug]

I appreciate the thoughtful responses to my question about the conferences.  You essentially confirmed what I thought but my ideas were not based on much real data.  I also do not know much about the GSAC school except Maryville, which I personally still regret having left the ODAC.  Still, the reasons as I understand them were related to how very far it is from Maryville to many of the ODAC schools.  It is partly money but also time away from class, which after all is rather important for schools serious about D3 athletics.

[narch]

Guilford...and others have been playing football over 100 years. 

you'd think after more than 100 years, the quackers would learn how to play football better than they have the last few

in all seriousness, i think most of your observations are spot on, especially those about longevity - it's amazing to me to think that a place like mc will celebrate the 50th anniversary of it's charter this year...most of the odac schools (and any other schools, for that matter) have been around twice as long, or longer - in many ways it makes what mc has been able to accomplish as an institution that much more incredible - i imagine 50 years into it's history (46 years with students) a school like w&l, even, was struggling to make it's way in higher education...of course, those were different times

the one thing i'd like to point out with all the talk of us news and averages, etc. is this...don't be fooled - while your alma mater and numerous other odac schools may have higher averages, they'll all reach down and take some kids you wouldn't imagine would get in given those averages, and some will give academic $$$$'s to those same kids - there are odac schools, with average gpa & sat scores higher than those at most, if not all, usasac schools that will give academic scholarships to students with a 2.5 or better gpa...say, lynchburg, for example - lc scholarship chart - i'm not saying it's wrong, but i wouldn't necessarily expect a school that reports an average sat and gpa that are above a 3.1 and a 1050 to give an academic scholarship to a student who clearly falls in the bottom portion of the class, right?...but it's right there in writing, so they must - i know someone who got over $15k in academic money at an odac school with a 2.7 gpa...i wondered if he would GET IN when he told me that he was considering the school, yet he got an academic scholarship covering over 1/2 of his expenses with a family that makes well into 6 figures - it was clearly an academic award when i read the letter - i'm not accusing any school of cheating or saying they shouldn't do these things, but it makes you wonder just how selective a school is when they'll give a 2.7 gpa that kind of academic $$$, doesn't it? - all in all, reputations are sometimes just that...

[hasanova]

Guilford...and others have been playing football over 100 years. 

you'd think after more than 100 years, the quackers would learn how to play football better than they have the last few

in all seriousness, i think most of your observations are spot on, especially those about longevity - it's amazing to me to think that a place like mc will celebrate the 50th anniversary of it's charter this year...most of the odac schools (and any other schools, for that matter) have been around twice as long, or longer - in many ways it makes what mc has been able to accomplish as an institution that much more incredible - i imagine 50 years into it's history (46 years with students) a school like w&l, even, was struggling to make it's way in higher education...of course, those were different times

the one thing i'd like to point out with all the talk of us news and averages, etc. is this...don't be fooled - while your alma mater and numerous other odac schools may have higher averages, they'll all reach down and take some kids you wouldn't imagine would get in given those averages, and some will give academic $$$$'s to those same kids - there are odac schools, with average gpa & sat scores higher than those at most, if not all, usasac schools that will give academic scholarships to students with a 2.5 or better gpa...say, lynchburg, for example - lc scholarship chart - i'm not saying it's wrong, but i wouldn't necessarily expect a school that reports an average sat and gpa that are above a 3.1 and a 1050 to give an academic scholarship to a student who clearly falls in the bottom portion of the class, right?...but it's right there in writing, so they must - i know someone who got over $15k in academic money at an odac school with a 2.7 gpa...i wondered if he would GET IN when he told me that he was considering the school, yet he got an academic scholarship covering over 1/2 of his expenses with a family that makes well into 6 figures - it was clearly an academic award when i read the letter - i'm not accusing any school of cheating or saying they shouldn't do these things, but it makes you wonder just how selective a school is when they'll give a 2.7 gpa that kind of academic $$$, doesn't it? - all in all, reputations are sometimes just that...

narch - Yes, you'd think the Quakers would have figured it out by now.  lol  I've thought the same thing many, many times myself.  Here's a repeat of the haiku I wrote for Guilford football on d3football.com:

Win a game, lose two
Repeat one hundred autumns
Still time to run right

Everyone, including me, has a lot of pride in their alma mater.  The very literal translation of alma mater is, in fact, "nourishing mother."  People understandably defend their "mother" and I expect nothing less from you.  Methodist has, indeeed, accomplished a lot in a half century and your ardent support is both deserved and palpable.  In my earlier discussion, I openly said I was a graduate of an ODAC school, but I do think I tried to answer scottiedoug's query with facts and a reasonable amount of objectivity.  Taken as a whole, do I think the ODAC has an academic reputation that is generally accepted to be higher than the USASAC?  Yes, I do.  Do I say that only because I attended an ODAC school?  No, I do not.  I say it for the same reasons I think the UAA or the Centennial are stronger top to bottom than the ODAC - because the statistical and empirical data support it.  Are there many students at Methodist or any other school in the USASAC that could excel academically at the most prestigious schools?  Of course there are.  Are all students at Methodist or Ferrum (or Guilford for that matter) suited for the Ivy League?  No, they certainly are not.  I'm just saying you will find a higher percentage of such students in the ODAC than you will in the USASAC.

Now, with this being said, I am not so naive as to think that many schools, even those with stellar academic reputations, do not occasionally "pull a few strings" to get a good athlete past admissions and financial aid rules.  Sometimes, the desire to win (and the positive PR that can accompany it) clouds good judgment.  I won't comment about other schools, but I suspect it from time to time even at my alma mater.  While it may not technically be breaking the rules, it is certainly "bending" them and I, for one, wish it wasn't done.

Good luck to the Monarchs this season.  I hope you win them all except September 9th.  lol  Peace 

[wilburt]

Nice old article on USA South and Maryville football:

http://www.winchesterstar.com/TheWinchesterStar/030717/Sports_football.asp

[Ralph Turner]

Nice old article on USA South and Maryville football:

http://www.winchesterstar.com/TheWinchesterStar/030717/Sports_football.asp

The July 2003 timeline reminds me that Chowan was a member of the USAC then.

[PrideSportBBallGuy]

I have read your discussion hasanova and narc and you both bring up valid points. 

I played football with a kid that went to an ODAC school, a great player, but as dumb as a box or rocks.  They take big risks on allowing those below standards acceptance.  He was out the next year.  Luckily for the ODAC their volume of students would hardly put a dent into their record of academics.  It might put a bigger dent in any USAS school, maybe in the USAS isn't willing to take that risk.

As far as facilites are concerned Greensboro is planning on putting up a state of the art facility soon or maybe 100 years haha.  It is an off campus facilty, I think because either GC doesn't have room for it on campus or because of GC being in a historical location, or both.  It will be nice to see.

[hasanova]

I have read your discussion hasanova and narc and you both bring up valid points. 

I played football with a kid that went to an ODAC school, a great player, but as dumb as a box or rocks.  They take big risks on allowing those below standards acceptance.  He was out the next year.  Luckily for the ODAC their volume of students would hardly put a dent into their record of academics.  It might put a bigger dent in any USAS school, maybe in the USAS isn't willing to take that risk.

As far as facilites are concerned Greensboro is planning on putting up a state of the art facility soon or maybe 100 years haha.  It is an off campus facilty, I think because either GC doesn't have room for it on campus or because of GC being in a historical location, or both.  It will be nice to see.

PrideSportBBallGuy- All schools (and the ODAC members are no exception) take "risks" with kids every fall.  Sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't.  Personally, I don't think a school should go too far in accepting marginal students because I think they are doing a disservice to the student, to his/her fellow students and the school as a whole.  I know it's done and I understand why it's done, but I still don't like it.  I was a really good high school student with the SAT score and GPA to back it up, but college was a shock to my system, especially my first year, so I can only imagine what it would be like for someone who was not well prepared academically and socially for college life.  They can get in over their head in a hurry, especially with the demands of playing an intercollegiate sport.

I've also heard that Greensboro College is talking about adding some new athletic facilities and I think that will be great.  GC really does have some serious space restrictions, so I'm not sure what options are being considered.   For now, they're lucky that Grimsley's Jameson Stadium (Jameson is a Guilford College alumnus by the way ) is so close and is available on Saturdays, but they could use their own site.