FB: Empire 8

[Bombers798891]

It's all good.  Like I said...one more win, and Bailey can etch his name on the trophy...and pretty much already has at this point.  Personally, Secky is the only player that can even possibly catch Bailey...and I would put those odds are somewhere around 50:1.

Benkwitt has had a good season...no question.  But where he falls short is his numbers against league competition thus far, where he is only averaging 229 yards, 1 x TD, and 1 x INT per game.  Plus, about 1/3 of his yards (633 of 1900+) and TD's (6 of 18) come against Becker and Castleton State.  Additionally...Utica still hasn't beaten a good team yet this year (or ever).

That's a fair point about the competition, but against similar opponents (so far) Benkwitt comes out easily ahead

Springfield
Benkwitt: 18-25, 201 yards, 2 TD's 0 INT's
Secky: 17-24, 235 yards, 2 TD's 2 INT's

St. Lawrence
Benkwitt: 24-38, 308 yards 3 TD's, 0 INTs
Secky: 17-30, 169 yards, 1 TD, 2 INT's

Granted, this can change, as Benkwitt struggled against Fisher, but right now I'm not sure the competition argument holds water. Benkwitt easily picked apart two defenses Secky struggled against.

But good debate

[theoriginalupstate]

I think its might be a little combination of the both.  I think because he lost Manzer, he's forced to take a more chances with the ball.  Where as with Manzer, you could get with short dump offs and he could take is 70 yards or at least get that little extra for a first down.  The kid was truly special on the field and knew how to make plays.  Not saying the guys there now don't, I still think Ryan Thon is the best receiver I ever played with, but there are certain things that Manzer did that I'm sure he even suprised himself with.  Coach Puccio always told us that when a little spark is needed, get the ball into the hands of the guys that will make plays.  Let them make something with it.  I think in that sense, Manzer may have been the been the best at it the E8 has seen in a longggg time.  With Manzer, unconventional could work.

I think Manzer may have been one of the most versatile players the E8 has seen in it's short time.  Manzer's ability to play very well no matter where he was on the field made him special, however I wouldn't go farther than that by saying he's one of the best play makers the E8 has seen (if that's what you were saying in the bolded part).

[AlfredSaxon8]

I think its might be a little combination of the both.  I think because he lost Manzer, he's forced to take a more chances with the ball.  Where as with Manzer, you could get with short dump offs and he could take is 70 yards or at least get that little extra for a first down.  The kid was truly special on the field and knew how to make plays.  Not saying the guys there now don't, I still think Ryan Thon is the best receiver I ever played with, but there are certain things that Manzer did that I'm sure he even suprised himself with.  Coach Puccio always told us that when a little spark is needed, get the ball into the hands of the guys that will make plays.  Let them make something with it.  I think in that sense, Manzer may have been the been the best at it the E8 has seen in a longggg time.  With Manzer, unconventional could work.

I think Manzer may have been one of the most versatile players the E8 has seen in it's short time.  Manzer's ability to play very well no matter where he was on the field made him special, however I wouldn't go farther than that by saying he's one of the best play makers the E8 has seen (if that's what you were saying in the bolded part).

I am saying I think he is one of the best playmakers the E8 has ever seen.  Maybe it falls more under the category of versatile but the ability to make plays on either side of the ball and special teams would definitely be considered a playmaker in my book.  He returned punts for td's, interceptions for td's, he threw a td, returned kicks for td's, not to mention he caught the most passes and TD's and has the most yards in Alfred history.  On top of that, he kicked the ball off, made his fair share of tackles, and intercepted passes.  I would definitely say thats a gamebreaker. 

[sjfcards]

Hard to argue with that.

[theoriginalupstate]

I think its might be a little combination of the both.  I think because he lost Manzer, he's forced to take a more chances with the ball.  Where as with Manzer, you could get with short dump offs and he could take is 70 yards or at least get that little extra for a first down.  The kid was truly special on the field and knew how to make plays.  Not saying the guys there now don't, I still think Ryan Thon is the best receiver I ever played with, but there are certain things that Manzer did that I'm sure he even suprised himself with.  Coach Puccio always told us that when a little spark is needed, get the ball into the hands of the guys that will make plays.  Let them make something with it.  I think in that sense, Manzer may have been the been the best at it the E8 has seen in a longggg time.  With Manzer, unconventional could work.

I think Manzer may have been one of the most versatile players the E8 has seen in it's short time.  Manzer's ability to play very well no matter where he was on the field made him special, however I wouldn't go farther than that by saying he's one of the best play makers the E8 has seen (if that's what you were saying in the bolded part).

I am saying I think he is one of the best playmakers the E8 has ever seen.  Maybe it falls more under the category of versatile but the ability to make plays on either side of the ball and special teams would definitely be considered a playmaker in my book.  He returned punts for td's, interceptions for td's, he threw a td, returned kicks for td's, not to mention he caught the most passes and TD's and has the most yards in Alfred history.  On top of that, he kicked the ball off, made his fair share of tackles, and intercepted passes.  I would definitely say thats a gamebreaker. 

I would definitely say that he's the most complete football player the E8 has seen, but I wouldn't say he's the one of the best play makers the E8 has seen...

There's a difference between the two...

[AlfredSaxon8]

I think its might be a little combination of the both.  I think because he lost Manzer, he's forced to take a more chances with the ball.  Where as with Manzer, you could get with short dump offs and he could take is 70 yards or at least get that little extra for a first down.  The kid was truly special on the field and knew how to make plays.  Not saying the guys there now don't, I still think Ryan Thon is the best receiver I ever played with, but there are certain things that Manzer did that I'm sure he even suprised himself with.  Coach Puccio always told us that when a little spark is needed, get the ball into the hands of the guys that will make plays.  Let them make something with it.  I think in that sense, Manzer may have been the been the best at it the E8 has seen in a longggg time.  With Manzer, unconventional could work.

I think Manzer may have been one of the most versatile players the E8 has seen in it's short time.  Manzer's ability to play very well no matter where he was on the field made him special, however I wouldn't go farther than that by saying he's one of the best play makers the E8 has seen (if that's what you were saying in the bolded part).

I am saying I think he is one of the best playmakers the E8 has ever seen.  Maybe it falls more under the category of versatile but the ability to make plays on either side of the ball and special teams would definitely be considered a playmaker in my book.  He returned punts for td's, interceptions for td's, he threw a td, returned kicks for td's, not to mention he caught the most passes and TD's and has the most yards in Alfred history.  On top of that, he kicked the ball off, made his fair share of tackles, and intercepted passes.  I would definitely say thats a gamebreaker. 

I would definitely say that he's the most complete football player the E8 has seen, but I wouldn't say he's the one of the best play makers the E8 has seen...

There's a difference between the two...

That's your opinion and I definitely respect that... But I played with the kid for 3 years and he was the best play maker I have ever seen. And I go as far as saying the best in the E8 because I try to think about other people from other teams that even came close to doing the things he did and I can't think of anyone.  Every time he touched the ball, he had the potential to take it for a TD on offense, defense or special teams.  That's a playmaker.  The last player I know with that ability was Jesse Raynor.  Wouldn't you consider him one of the best E8 playmakers? What about Esposito? Farenbach?  Did any of them accomplish the things that Manzer did?

[boobyhasgameyo]

Pierre was a pretty good playmaker whenever he had the ball in his hands.

[theoriginalupstate]

That's your opinion and I definitely respect that... But I played with the kid for 3 years and he was the best play maker I have ever seen. And I go as far as saying the best in the E8 because I try to think about other people from other teams that even came close to doing the things he did and I can't think of anyone.  Every time he touched the ball, he had the potential to take it for a TD on offense, defense or special teams.  That's a playmaker.  The last player I know with that ability was Jesse Raynor.  Wouldn't you consider him one of the best E8 playmakers? What about Esposito? Farenbach?  Did any of them accomplish the things that Manzer did?

As strictly a WR, Ferhenbach was the better WR...

As a DB, Stepnick was the better DB...

As a Returner Tim Marion was the better returner...

Like I said, he's the most complete football player (and a damn good one too) but he's not the best play maker the E8 has seen...

[AlfredSaxon8]

That's your opinion and I definitely respect that... But I played with the kid for 3 years and he was the best play maker I have ever seen. And I go as far as saying the best in the E8 because I try to think about other people from other teams that even came close to doing the things he did and I can't think of anyone.  Every time he touched the ball, he had the potential to take it for a TD on offense, defense or special teams.  That's a playmaker.  The last player I know with that ability was Jesse Raynor.  Wouldn't you consider him one of the best E8 playmakers? What about Esposito? Farenbach?  Did any of them accomplish the things that Manzer did?

As strictly a WR, Ferhenbach was the better WR...

As a DB, Stepnick was the better DB...

As a Returner Tim Marion was the better returner...

Like I said, he's the most complete football player (and a damn good one too) but he's not the best play maker the E8 has seen...

A playmaker is someone that can turn nothing into something.  That's what Manzer did better than anyone else over the past couple years in the E8

[SJFF82]

That's your opinion and I definitely respect that... But I played with the kid for 3 years and he was the best play maker I have ever seen. And I go as far as saying the best in the E8 because I try to think about other people from other teams that even came close to doing the things he did and I can't think of anyone.  Every time he touched the ball, he had the potential to take it for a TD on offense, defense or special teams.  That's a playmaker.  The last player I know with that ability was Jesse Raynor.  Wouldn't you consider him one of the best E8 playmakers? What about Esposito? Farenbach?  Did any of them accomplish the things that Manzer did?

As strictly a WR, Ferhenbach was the better WR...

As a DB, Stepnick was the better DB...

As a Returner Tim Marion was the better returner...

Like I said, he's the most complete football player (and a damn good one too) but he's not the best play maker the E8 has seen...

so who was the better 'play-maker'...and what is the definition of a 'playmaker' as opposed to defining the best at a particular position.  I mean, I agree with you, for ex, when you say Ferenbach was the better WR, but by limiting him to the best WR, then arent you necessarily deciding that he is not the total playmaker that Manzer might have been.

I am just trying to understand what the 2 of you are debating....

[theoriginalupstate]

Pierre was a pretty good playmaker whenever he had the ball in his hands.

Are you talking about that kid that had 40 receptions, 1,000yds and 13 TDs as a freshman?

Nah he sucked.

What's he doing these days anyways?

[theoriginalupstate]

Was Manzer the most feared "play maker" by the opposition in the short history of the E8?

Nope.

End of story.

Don't get me wrong, he was a GREAT player and the most complete football player the E8 has seen.

[SJFF82]

Pierre was a pretty good playmaker whenever he had the ball in his hands.

Are you talking about that kid that had 40 receptions, 1,000yds and 13 TDs as a freshman?

Nah he sucked.

What's he doing these days anyways?

he is 'starting' for about 275,000 fantasy football teams around the country, while the rest of the guys we are debating about are flippin burgers...

[SJFF82]

Was Manzer the most feared "play maker" by the opposition in the short history of the E8?

Nope.

End of story.

Don't get me wrong, he was a GREAT player and the most complete football player the E8 has seen.

Who was then?  In your opinion?

[theoriginalupstate]

Was Manzer the most feared "play maker" by the opposition in the short history of the E8?

Nope.

End of story.

Don't get me wrong, he was a GREAT player and the most complete football player the E8 has seen.

Who was then?  In your opinion?

IMO, it's either Jason Boltus or Mark Robinson...