FB: Liberty League

[Machiavelli]

I'm gonna bring this up again because it's obvious someone is typing their Top 25 Ballot into chatGPT and mailing it in with zero effort...

Ithaca 3-1
Brockport 3-1
Utica 3-1

Ithaca lost to the # 3 team in the country, blew out a decent Alfred, a crappy Dilbert and beat Hobart by 6.

Brockport blew out terrible Buff St, beat Hobart by 4, lost to RPI in OT, and blew out powerhouse Hartwick.

Utica beat W&J, destroyed RPI, lost to Hobart, and beat up Alfred State.


Given this information, how does Brockport have 7 votes, Utica 6 votes, and Ithaca 0 votes? I'd argue Ithaca has better wins, with Utica right behind them, and Brockport's a little below.

And I'd also argue Ithaca's loss is far less damaging than both Brockport and Utica, even though they are against 2 good team. Am I going crazy here? This just feels lazy to me.

[Pat Coleman]

All of those vote totals you cite are very small, of course.

[Bartman]

I'm gonna bring this up again because it's obvious someone is typing their Top 25 Ballot into chatGPT and mailing it in with zero effort...

Ithaca 3-1
Brockport 3-1
Utica 3-1

Ithaca lost to the # 3 team in the country, blew out a decent Alfred, a crappy Dilbert and beat Hobart by 6.

Brockport blew out terrible Buff St, beat Hobart by 4, lost to RPI in OT, and blew out powerhouse Hartwick.

Utica beat W&J, destroyed RPI, lost to Hobart, and beat up Alfred State.


Given this information, how does Brockport have 7 votes, Utica 6 votes, and Ithaca 0 votes? I'd argue Ithaca has better wins, with Utica right behind them, and Brockport's a little below.

And I'd also argue Ithaca's loss is far less damaging than both Brockport and Utica, even though they are against 2 good team. Am I going crazy here? This just feels lazy to me.

Mach. you're not crazy, but I think the LL is not going to get much attention this year. It looks to me that Ithaca, Hobart and RPI are good solid teams that will compete for the LL Championship(I'm still holding out hope for a Hobart win against RPI this week and an RPI win later in the season over Ithaca to give us a 3 way LL tie). I think the D3.com voters have just written the league off this year and your application of comparative game result logic to explain"getting votes" in the poll is not worthy of your elite RPI education. I think we will have some great games including the one this Saturday between RPI and Hobart at the BOZ. MY dream is Hobart finishing 7-3 and winning the tie breaker for the LL title......but then again, I'm a Mets fan  , a Giants fan and rooted for the Americans in the Ryder Cup...so until Hobart Hockey season, backing Hobart football is all I got.

[Machiavelli]

I know, I know. I'm splitting hairs at this point in the season, but even RPI has 2 better wins than Brockport has on their resume. Brockport has beaten Hobart(by 4), and NOBODY else. Why are they there? If Utica is there because they beat up on RPI, but RPI's win over Brockport had zero effect on Brockport getting a few votes, I am just not tracking. The E8 is NOT better than the LL. They are about even. I think the top of the heap is pretty even, and maybe give the E8 a slight nod at the bottom of the league, mostly because now we have BOTH Buff St. and Hilbert.

 

[unionpalooza]

I know, I know. I'm splitting hairs at this point in the season, but even RPI has 2 better wins than Brockport has on their resume. Brockport has beaten Hobart(by 4), and NOBODY else. Why are they there? If Utica is there because they beat up on RPI, but RPI's win over Brockport had zero effect on Brockport getting a few votes, I am just not tracking. The E8 is NOT better than the LL. They are about even. I think the top of the heap is pretty even, and maybe give the E8 a slight nod at the bottom of the league, mostly because now we have BOTH Buff St. and Hilbert.
 

I know that Pat works to have a geographically diverse set of votes, and bless him for doing so, but I think the non-R1/2 voters are always paying way less attention to what happens in the East than vice versa, resulting in these kinds of weirdnesses all the time.  I mean, why on earth is Cortland ranked while Grove City, who beat them 31-14, is getting only four votes?  I can see thinking that Grove City is not a Top 25 team because they lost to W&J, who in turn lost to Utica and Hampden Sydney.  But how is Cortland, who's best win is over a 2-2 Union team they led 7-6 going into the fourth quarter, getting 100 votes?  Some of these guys are paying no attention to the east whatsoever.

You know what would be a fun new D3F product?  Regional rankings each week, done by voters in the region.  Those would be a lot more reliable, I suspect.  (And as I've long argued, there's basically no rational basis anyway for comparing D3 programs on a nationwide basis anyway, with only 10 games and very little cross-over play.)

[IC798891]

So.

I feel like we've been waiting on Brockport to turn the corner and actually win a big game and their conference forever. They just don't. They blew a winnable game vs. Cortland last year, and they blew this game against RPI. They remind me a lot of Swanstrom's IC teams. Good for 7-8 wins, can blow out mediocre teams, but can't seem to make the handful of plays needed to win the big games.

As for Ithaca, first off, they don't deserve a Top 25 ranking until they stop wearing gray jerseys at home. They're drab, ugly, and the school colors are blue and gold. I'm not an old man clinging to tradition — I was fully on board with turf and lights at Butterfield. The jersey color sucks, I will die on that hill.

But also, I'm okay with them being unranked. The Hilbert game was essentially a scrimmage. Alfred is mediocre — their win over Brockport last year is attributable to Brockport losing their QB1 against Cortland last year, IMO. And the Hobart game was just an ugly game they won by the skin of their teeth. They've got legitimate issues on offense and special teams that nearly cost them.

While I believe the talk of their "decline" to 6-4 was overrated when you look at how small the margin of the Endicott game was from year to year, for example, and how they housed everyone in the LL except Hobart (contrasting with many close LL games in 2023) I don't blame people for expecting IC to prove it belongs, and there isn't a statement win here.

[Bartman]

So.

I feel like we've been waiting on Brockport to turn the corner and actually win a big game and their conference forever. They just don't. They blew a winnable game vs. Cortland last year, and they blew this game against RPI. They remind me a lot of Swanstrom's IC teams. Good for 7-8 wins, can blow out mediocre teams, but can't seem to make the handful of plays needed to win the big games.

As for Ithaca, first off, they don't deserve a Top 25 ranking until they stop wearing gray jerseys at home. They're drab, ugly, and the school colors are blue and gold. I'm not an old man clinging to tradition — I was fully on board with turf and lights at Butterfield. The jersey color sucks, I will die on that hill.

But also, I'm okay with them being unranked. The Hilbert game was essentially a scrimmage. Alfred is mediocre — their win over Brockport last year is attributable to Brockport losing their QB1 against Cortland last year, IMO. And the Hobart game was just an ugly game they won by the skin of their teeth. They've got legitimate issues on offense and special teams that nearly cost them.

While I believe the talk of their "decline" to 6-4 was overrated when you look at how small the margin of the Endicott game was from year to year, for example, and how they housed everyone in the LL except Hobart (contrasting with many close LL games in 2023) I don't blame people for expecting IC to prove it belongs, and there isn't a statement win here.

A fair analysis. Both IC and Hobart defenses are strong and showed it Saturday. I thought the IC passing game was stronger, but I think Hobart has a top secondary, which they proved against Utica. I don't know IC's health but I know Hobart is still healing at QB, RB and Oline, which has hurt what was thought to be a strong scoring offense this year. That said, last year's Ithaca team certainly had a chance to beat Hobart and Hobart had the same chance this year against IC, the teams have been that close recently, both good but imperfect.
  I think Hobart's season comes down to next week against RPI(Homecoming, should be a big crowd) and IC's should come down to the RPI showdown in Troy later in the season. Union looks strong enough to put together an upset with Patch running all over the field....Lot's of football to play.

[Machiavelli]

Adding Cortland into this conversation is a great comparison. They are also 3-1, essentially have beaten no one that matters at this point, and their loss was NOT to the still # 3 team in the country(who seems like a legit national champ contender). 100 votes, just because the name is more recognizable I guess. Yes, they were a preseason 10 and all and those tend to hover for a while, but if Utica beats them, they should be off the grid.

If RPI beats Hobart, 'Bart becomes the best 1-4 team in the country, but it does nothing for RPI unfortunately. RPI will have to run the table to even get a sniff at getting votes. Same Same every year. Ithaca is pretty much in the same boat really.

[ICGrad]

A fair analysis. Both IC and Hobart defenses are strong and showed it Saturday. I thought the IC passing game was stronger, but I think Hobart has a top secondary, which they proved against Utica. I don't know IC's health but I know Hobart is still healing at QB, RB and Oline, which has hurt what was thought to be a strong scoring offense this year. That said, last year's Ithaca team certainly had a chance to beat Hobart and Hobart had the same chance this year against IC, the teams have been that close recently, both good but imperfect.

Last year, I felt Ithaca was the better team, but Hobart made 2 or 3 huge defensive plays that swing the game in their favor.

This year, I felt like Hobart was the better team (or at least looked it on Saturday) but Ithaca got some calls that tipped the balance. Better to be luck than good, I guess.

I'm frustrated by the addition of Hilbert to the LL slate. Bad enough we took on Buff State; now we added arguably the worst team in D3 (not an insult; it's literally a new program that has yet to win a game) and further tank everyone's SoS. So Ithaca swaps out a game against an Endicott-caliber opponent for Hilbert, all but guaranteeing that it's either run the table on OOC games (which obviously didn't happen) or win the AQ (which fortunately looks possible after Saturday).

Letting Hilbert hop into the LL as a football-only school all but killed the possibility of the LL being a two bid league. I hope this addition is short lived. Or that Hilbert gets better...fast.

[ICGrad]

I'm gonna bring this up again because it's obvious someone is typing their Top 25 Ballot into chatGPT and mailing it in with zero effort...

....

This just feels lazy to me.

Agree. But it also doesn't really matter.

[tony/troy]

Adding Cortland into this conversation is a great comparison. They are also 3-1, essentially have beaten no one that matters at this point, and their loss was NOT to the still # 3 team in the country(who seems like a legit national champ contender). 100 votes, just because the name is more recognizable I guess. Yes, they were a preseason 10 and all and those tend to hover for a while, but if Utica beats them, they should be off the grid.

If RPI beats Hobart, 'Bart becomes the best 1-4 team in the country, but it does nothing for RPI unfortunately. RPI will have to run the table to even get a sniff at getting votes. Same Same every year. Ithaca is pretty much in the same boat really.

Just the thought of a Hobart team starting 1-4 has me thinking not possible.

Set the odds of that ever happening about the same as either Elvis not getting the girl at the end of virtually all his movies or that of an Oriental gal ever getting the guy at the end of a Hallmark movie!!! 

[Ice Bear]

Ithaca's grays are sweet to my eye, but I totally understand where you coming from IC. Union has done the same thing with the grays and RPI the blacks (and I bet it has driven some crazy). While I think some of these changes are super sharp,  I can't argue the fact that they aren't the true colors of the schools and that must drive many crazy. Even though I think Union's grays look sharp, I'd still prefer white and garnet or all garnet as I'm sure you're missing the blue/white/golds.

[UfanBill]

Ithaca's grays are sweet to my eye, but I totally understand where you coming from IC. Union has done the same thing with the grays and RPI the blacks (and I bet it has driven some crazy). While I think some of these changes are super sharp,  I can't argue the fact that they aren't the true colors of the schools and that must drive many crazy. Even though I think Union's grays look sharp, I'd still prefer white and garnet or all garnet as I'm sure you're missing the blue/white/golds.

Ice Bear...I am one that does not like the gray Union uniform but not because of the color gray. In fact decades ago the Dutchmen were known as the Garnet and Gray...I've expressed before that these old eyes just cannot see the white numerals on the gray jerseys.     

The third Union head coach in 3 years, current coach Jon Drach, started slow going 3-9 in his first 12 games. Last year's Union team had a lot of good returning players but underachieved. I was starting to become a doubter...until what transpired for the Garnet the last 2 weeks. Using a plethora of new players Union showed much of it's old form in throttling Morrisville and St. Lawrence. Especially encouraging is how the defense played. They played smart, covered tight and tackled well. Rallying to the ball like every DC wants to see. Playing those tough openers seems to have strengthened the Union D...On offense QB Patch Flanagan has been outstanding. His passes have been more accurate and he's a beast when he runs with the ball...With that being said poor play calling is something I despise but overall it's been good. My philosophy is to scout out and plan for what should work. Run it and if it works keep going back to it until they stop it. I don't like an OC who thinks that just because they have 100 plays on the play sheet they have to run them all. That leads to confusion, missed assignments, stalled drives and turnovers. Saturday Union ran 71 total offensive plays. 41 rushes and 30 passes, and gained 504 total yards (246r, 258p). That's a good mix. Play strong D with a balanced O and you'll win games. Coach Drach has grown on me.   

[Bartman]

All this talk of gray jerseys....how boring...give me the pumpkin all orange for Hobart this Saturday against RPI...pants, jerseys and helmets....and in some cases cleats as well.
On another topic, I just read about the Hope Flying Dutchmen's game and it made pine for the old Dutchmen of Union. Now when I recharge my phone , I think of Union    

[ICAlum16]

Bartman, curious on your thoughts on Coach DeWall. Are you starting to maybe turn up the heat on his seat? Seems like a good guy and obviously a solid coach but he also has some Swanstrom in him where he tends to struggle in more meaningful games. Obviously they beat Ithaca and won the league last year but if you look at the body of work it is overall disappointing in conference. I had to come to terms with this during the Swanstrom era and eventually found myself looking for change to try and get over the in league hump, he did get us over the hump with Cortland which was felt great the first two years.. but I digress. Not throwing any shade or anything like that just very curious on what you think!

All this talk of gray jerseys....how boring...give me the pumpkin all orange for Hobart this Saturday against RPI...pants, jerseys and helmets....and in some cases cleats as well.
On another topic, I just read about the Hope Flying Dutchmen's game and it made pine for the old Dutchmen of Union. Now when I recharge my phone , I think of Union