BB: General NY Region Talk

[Bob Maxwell]

This is a thread to pick up in the appropriate location from the NCAA tournament thread in the national topics.

[Bob Maxwell]

Cycle,

Yes the SJF team is one that I was alluding too,... but that is water under the bridge so I won't go into who beat who and when they did it. 

Yes, Brockport did make their bed last year and missed the NCAA tournament with some losses that to get into the NCAA's should not have happened. However, cudos to the teams that upset them... as they played good games to do so.

The perception that the NY region is weak is a problem that is hard to overcome... and the only way to get beyond that is for the teams in the region (particularly the stronger ones) to go out and play the strong teams from the other regions.  I don't see a lot of teams other then Cortland, Ithaca and Brockport doing that for more then a game.  Those three teams have these types of teams peppered all over their schedules... the other regionally ranked teams don't.  That needs to change for the NY region to gain in the national picture.

I can speak to the teams that I know about... I am sure that Oneonta with Weber, Locke, Salamida or Schellinger on the mound would give any of the teams in any region a good contest over the last 4 years.  Would they win all the games...no, but they would be in them all and win their share.  Plattsburgh, over the same 4 year period is a team that on any day can beat anyone... RIT has had a team that was very hard to beat last year...  Those teams each playing 3 or 4 games against nationally ranked or recognized teams would go a long way with improving the NY regions reputation.  Same with St. John Fisher, Oswego, RPI...

It has to be a collective thing that the conferences make an effort to do.  When I coached, the conference had scheduling guidlines taht they required all teams to follow.... I don't recall them exactly, but it was things like play 50% of your non-conference schedule against teams ranked in the top 100 from the previous years RPI's.  Is that hard to do?  yes, but we all did it and the conference grew to where we got 3 teams in the NCAA tournament in a year.

I would love to see the conferences in the NY region upgrade their schedules.... but there are a lot of things that impact the schools ability to do that.

I am interested in hearing comments on how to improve the NY regions image nationally.

[Ralph Turner]

The New York Region is comprised of 39 teams and 3 conferences.  This is a smaller than average region.

The Pool A conferences are the Skyline, the SUNYAC and the Liberty League.  Cazenovia, Keuka and D'Youville from the Pool A North Eastern AC will also compete in the New York Region.  (D'Youville moves to the AMCC in 2008-09.)

The 10 independent schools that compete for Pool B bids include the "E-8" schools and some CUNYAC schools.  I have not seen any changes in the composition of those conferences that might move them to Pool A.

If you are talking about respect for the New York Region and measuring it by playoffs bids that the region earns, then you can look in two areas.

The 2007 Handbook gave 6 Pool B bids.  I anticipate that one bid will go from Pool B to Pool A as the Presidents AC gets a bid, leaving 5 Pool B bids in 2008.

There were 14 Pool C (at large bids) given in 2007 for the 328 schools that did not earn a Pool A bid (Conference AQ) or Pool B.  That is less than 1 at-large bid for every 23 schools that did not get a Pool A or Pool B bid.  That means that New York should expect one or two Pool C bids just on chance alone.


Here are the Pool B bid winners in 2007:

Chapman University (Calif.)     Independent     35-5     10th
College of St. Scholastica (Minn.)    Upper Midwest Athletic Conference    36-6    4th
Emory University (Ga.)    University Athletic Association    35-7    9th
Ithaca College (N.Y.)    Empire Eight Conference    24-13    31st
Salisbury University (Md.)    Capital Athletic Conference    32-8    13th
Washington University (Mo.)    University Athletic Association    30-9    6th

Chapman and Emory (as did Kean! and Marietta) made the D3Series.

Ithaca earned a Pool B bid.  Sporting a 24-13 overall record suggests a degree of respect.

The Pool C bids were

Augustana College (Ill.)     College Conference of Illinois & Wisconsin     32-12     2nd
George Fox University (Ore.)    Northwest Conference    30-9    6th
Illinois Wesleyan University    College Conference of Illinois & Wisconsin    32-11    6th
Kean University (N.J.)    New Jersey Athletic Conference    35-8    5th
Keene State College (N.H.)    Little East Conference    29-13    1st
Marietta College (Ohio)    Ohio Athletic Conference    28-14    29th
Methodist College (N.C.)    USA South Athletic Conference    29-13    22nd
St. John Fisher College (N.Y.)    Independent    26-11    1st
St. Olaf College (Minn.)    Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference    31-8    18th
The University of Texas at Dallas    American Southwest Conference    32-11    1st
The College of Wooster (Ohio)    North Coast Athletic Conference    40-5    22nd
Trinity College (Conn.)    New England Small College Athletic Conference    28-6    6th
University of Wisconsin-Oshkosh    Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference    32-10    23rd
York College (Pa.)    Independent Capital AC   29-12    10th

Source:  2007 Regional Participants

As we look at Pool C, we see 2 schools (SJF and York PA) who were considered in Pool B being thought by the Regional Criteria (including Regional Rankings) to be good enough to get an at-large Pool C bid.

The fact that the New York Region got the expected number of bids mitigates against any lack of respect.

I hope that New York fans will understand the competitive balance in D3 is such that you can look back on a season's schedule and realize this.

If your team stayed home, and there was one loss that they should not have had, then that loss kept them home. 

Having reviewed the Pool C bids in football since 2001 and basketball Pool C bids since about 2002, I am firmly convinced of that fact.

[BoomerIL]

Ralph.....

Great information!  It helps me understand the process.  Thanks for making this available.

[Bob Maxwell]

Ralph,

Yes, thanks for putting that together... it is interesting. 

The numbers do bear out that the proper number of teams went from the region...  I'm not trying to bash any other area, just stimulate some discussion about what can be done to improve the reputation of this region.

You mention it being a small region, which means there are fewer teams in it... and that is most likely why the perception exists... because there are fewer strong teams that are on the national stage and who arethere to talk about.  Percentage of teams most likely is the same in each region.... 


What I am saying is that if more of the top teams in NY were to make an effort to play more top teams from other regions, it would help to improve the "perception" that the region is not a strong one.  There are a handful of teams that could do this and be fairly successful... I mentioned several in last post, I am sure that there are a couple more each year too. 

A region is different then a conference... but I will make this point anyway as I feel it could apply loosely... One of the goals of a conference is to advance all of its teams as best it can so that they all grow together.  Yes, there are always top teams and bottom feeders in each conference.  But they should support each other to try to make all the teams better.  With a goal of raising the bottom teams so that they are competative not just in the conference, but against the top teams in other conferences too.  Substitute Region for conference and you can see what I'm trying to say...

I am suggesting that somehow the regional teams (and this can apply in any region, not just NY) make some bond to try to lift themselves collectively to be stronger.  That makes the situation better for all of them... and perhaps will give a team the benefit of the doubt with consideration to get into the championships.  to do this, the teams must stay competative with each other on the field, but eliminate the petty jealousies they have with each other off it and work together.  I know, that is a hard one for many people to do.... as they feel they are giving something up when they work together. 

Just trying to stimulate some baseball conversation at this time of year...

[John McGraw]

Regional teams in upstate New York don't have time to play one another because they all have a large number of conference games.

Usually the only time upstate teams play outside of their conference is in Florida and then there's a handful of regional games against other New York teams or teams from Pennsylvania, Massachusetts or New Jersey.

[BigPoppa]

The New York Region is comprised of 39 teams and 3 conferences.  This is a smaller than average region.

The Pool A conferences are the Skyline, the SUNYAC and the Liberty League.  Cazenovia, Keuka and D'Youville from the Pool A) North Eastern AC will also compete in the New York Region.  (Keuka and D'Youville move to the AMCC in 2008-09.)

The 10 independent schools that compete for Pool B bids include the "E-8" schools and some CUNYAC schools.  I have not seen any changes in the composition of those conferences that might move them to Pool A.

If you are talking about respect for the New York Region and measuring it by playoffs bids that the region earns, then you can look in two areas.

The 2007 Handbook gave 6 Pool B bids.  I anticipate that one bid will go from Pool B to Pool A as the Presidents AC gets a bid, leaving 5 Pool B bids in 2008.

There were 14 Pool C (at large bids) given in 2007 for the 328 schools that did not earn a Pool A bid (Conference AQ) or Pool B.  That is less than 1 at-large bid for every 23 school that did not get a Pool A or Pool B bid.  That means that New York should expect one or two Pool C bids just on chance alone.


Here are the Pool B bid winners in 2007:

Chapman University (Calif.)     Independent     35-5     10th
College of St. Scholastica (Minn.)    Upper Midwest Athletic Conference    36-6    4th
Emory University (Ga.)    University Athletic Association    35-7    9th
Ithaca College (N.Y.)    Empire Eight Conference    24-13    31st
Salisbury University (Md.)    Capital Athletic Conference    32-8    13th
Washington University (Mo.)    University Athletic Association    30-9    6th

Chapman and Emory (as did Kean! and Marietta) made the D3Series.

Ithaca earned a Pool B bid.  Sporting a 24-13 overall record suggests a degree of respect.

The Pool C bids were

Augustana College (Ill.)     College Conference of Illinois & Wisconsin     32-12     2nd
George Fox University (Ore.)    Northwest Conference    30-9    6th
Illinois Wesleyan University    College Conference of Illinois & Wisconsin    32-11    6th
Kean University (N.J.)    New Jersey Athletic Conference    35-8    5th
Keene State College (N.H.)    Little East Conference    29-13    1st
Marietta College (Ohio)    Ohio Athletic Conference    28-14    29th
Methodist College (N.C.)    USA South Athletic Conference    29-13    22nd
St. John Fisher College (N.Y.)    Independent    26-11    1st
St. Olaf College (Minn.)    Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference    31-8    18th
The University of Texas at Dallas    American Southwest Conference    32-11    1st
The College of Wooster (Ohio)    North Coast Athletic Conference    40-5    22nd
Trinity College (Conn.)    New England Small College Athletic Conference    28-6    6th
University of Wisconsin-Oshkosh    Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference    32-10    23rd
York College (Pa.)    Independent Capital AC   29-12    10th

Source:  2007 Regional Participants

As we look at Pool C, we see 2 schools (SJF and York PA) who were considered in Pool B being thought by the Regional Criteria (including Regional Rankings) to be good enough to get an at-large Pool C bid.

The fact that the New York Region got the expected number of bids mitigates against any lack of respect.

I hope that New York fans will understand the competitive balance in D3 is such that you can look back on a season's schedule and realize this.

If your team stayed home, and there was one loss that they should not have had, then that loss kept them home. 

Having reviewed the Pool C bids in football since 2001 and basketball Pool C bids since about 2002, I am firmly convinced of that fact.

Ralph's post always make me feel like I know nothing about the process... I tip my hat to you once again.

[Ralph Turner]

Big Poppa, I need to correct one point.  Keuka will not move to the AMCC.

[Bob Maxwell]

Big Poppa,

You're correct about the quality of the posts that Ralph puts up.  If you have a question on anything put it up there and he will put it in perspective, supported by data.  And yes, it makes me feel like I don't know anything too... although I do have a lot of opinions...   

John,
You're correct about when games are played...but other regions have the same restrictions with the number of conference games.  In fact, the SUNYAC plays fewer conference games then a lot of conferences... but they have all the weekends from the end of March to the first week in May taken up by confernce commitments.  So it is still hard to get to play teams from other regions once April arrives, unless as you say you are near a regional "boarder".


Teams could pick up the type of games I'm suggesting on their spring trip as Brockoprt and Ithaca do every year.  Also, I would LOVE to see some time of collaborative scheduling where a conference or a couple of schools do something creative to bring a school or two in to play some games.

I see the Rochester in the Liberty League is playins some confernce games in Florida to ease the weatehr crunch when they go back north.  Not sure if it is just them and one other team or a conferene wide thing.  But that frees up some dates and games to possibly go to NJ or Ohio and pick up some games with ranked teams.

There are ways to do it... it would just take some cooperation and a top team wanting to do it.  That may be the problem; why would a top program, who already gets recognition and goes to the NCAA annually,  work to make the overall confernce or region stronger... when that would make their trip to the NCAA harder to obtain.  The answer to that is... in the future when they perhaps have a down year or don't win their conference, a stong regional reputation would help to get them that Pool C bid.

Of course I am talking about the NY region with this, but it is the same in every region.  In the west they were talking about the SCIAC never having received a Pool C bid.  So it happens everywhere... because of the limited number of bids available.  And if there are upsets in conference tournaments there are even fewer bids to spread around.

But this is interesting to talk about... how would a region collaborate to improve its overal strength/reputation and would schools be interested inworking together to do it.

[Old Man]

to John Mcgraw:

"Usually the only time upstate teams play outside of their conference is in Florida and then there's a handful of regional games against other New York teams or teams from Pennsylvania, Massachusetts or New Jersey."

if you look at the regional realignment imposed i believe last year - NY is in a different region than Mass, NJ or any other coastal States-

this was forwarded to me from a coach so i hope it is correct- What are your thoughts?

In-region Competition



The championships committee has expanded the definition of an in-region contest beginning with the 2006-07 championship season.  While contests against opponents within each institution's current sport region and within 200 miles of the institution will continue to be in-region contests, the expanded definition includes "all competition within an institutions membership geographical region."  The country is divided into four membership regions as listed below.  For most institutions, the change in definition should result in an expanded list of potential in-region opponents than in the past.



Region 1
 
Connecticut, Delaware, District of Columbia, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Jersey, Rhode Island, Vermont

Region 2
 
New York, Pennsylvania

Region 3
 
Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi, North Carolina, Ohio, Puerto Rico, South Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia, West Virginia

Region 4
 
Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Mexico, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Dakota, Texas, Utah, Washington, Wisconsin, Wyoming




The online computer program should default the in-region checkmark for all teams on your schedule that are within your sport and membership geographic regions.  Each institution needs to manually check the box if your opponent is not within your geographic or membership region, but is within 200 miles from campus to campus.  The 200 miles is not a reference to where the game is played, but a measurement from your campus to the campus of your opponent.  The NCAA is using Microsoft MapPoint (www.mappoint.msn.com) to calculate mileage.  You should still use the shortest  distance to confirm distances from campus to campus.

[Bob Maxwell]

What Old man posted is also listed on the d3baseball page FAQ... so it is correct. 

The changes  do expand the availalbe in region games for some teams.  However, with only a 200 mile radius and the use of the hard state boundaries it is not a level playing field with the increase of inregion games... based on where schools are located within the state/region.

Since i am a Brockpoprt fan, I will use them as an example...

By having PA in the same :"Administrative" region they have the schools in PA who can be included as In Region games...  There is a small section of NE corner of Ohio... not sure if there are any D-III schools in that area... but no one from New England or New Jersey is within the 200 miles.  so the change does very little for them.

Now take Cortland... they can go into Vermont, New Hampshire, Mass, Connecticut and most of NJ... and that is all within the 200 mile radius.  There are dozens of shools that they can play and count as in region schools. 

The two games that Brockport played against Keene last year were not in region games for them, but would have been (becasue of the 200 mile radius) for any other SUNYAC school except Fredonia and I think Oswego.  But Fredonia can pick up a lot of schools in Ohio if they so desired, that would be in region games for them.  Becasue of Brockport's location the changes did very little for them.  I think that Keene is just outside of 200 miles for Oswego... and they can just get into New Jersey so they have much the same limited expanded pool as Brockport.

I think while it was an effort to improve the options for schools, it didn't do a lot for a lot of schools based on their locations (like Brockport, Oswego and the non-SUNYAC teams in the Rochester area).  Increasing the radius to 300 miles would help everyone... or perhaps making it so that states that border border states would count.  That would increase options for everyone too.

Or another tack all together would be to create a second level of games that impact the rating numbers... develop this and have it some how work into the numbers.

Just some thoughts...

[Ralph Turner]

There are plenty of schools in Administrative Region #2.

PennAC
MAC
NEAC
PresAC
Most in the Skyline
CUNYAC schools that play baseball

The driving philosophy behind this is to minimize missed class time.  a 200-mile trip in NY is probably 4 hours; 300 miles 6 hours.

[Bob Maxwell]

Ralph,

Yes there are plenty of schools in PA in Administrative Region #2.  Most of them are outside of the 200 mile radius from Brockport... so that doesn't help with being able to play them as the drive is over 200 miles anyway. 

That is caused by the locaiton in the state... which can't be changed.   

The increase to 250 or 300 miles would mean that other schools in ohter areas are also within that radius.  Just putting some thoughts on the table.

I understand the missed drive time... when I coached any thing within a 4 hour drive was a match we could travel and play on the same day.  leave at 9:00 am, in hotel by 1:00 so that the pregame afternoon is the same home or away.

I guess since I work at a D-I school and coached here... I keep forgetting the missed class time part of it.   Slap myself upside the head... 

Thanks for reminding me.


As I said, just putting some thoughts on the table...

[Bob Maxwell]

the games against the teams that Ralph mentions are region games... and the drives to most of them are over 200 miles.  That is why I mentioned increasing the radius....  Just want to save you the reply telling me that the PA schools are in region games for NY teams.

[Ralph Turner]

Bob, the Presidents are firmly committed to the regional philosophy. I see very little support for any more expansion in the definitions of the "Regional Concept" in D-III.  The 200-mile radius was implemented about 4-5 years ago so a Shenandoah in the South Region in Winchester VA could play Mary Washington in Fredericksburg VA in the Mid-Atlantic Region in basketball and have it count as in-region.  The next increment was to find a philosophical way to expand the scheduling opportunities inside the region philosophy.  That was when the existing Administrative Region criterion was added to the Evaluation Region and Conference and the 200-mile radius criteria for "in-region".  An effort to count as in-region games any game that occurred during a five-day break in school (spring break or Christmas/New Year's or even fall break or Thanksgiving) "never got off the ground".

I count 82 possible opponents whom Brockport (or any other upstate New York team) can count as in-region.  That is nearly 25% of D-3.  If coaches want to co-ordinate the in-region games at the Florida or Arizona trips, when most of the non-conference games will be played, then I think that is a smart thing to do.  Go to the Spring Training host that you want to use and set up your tourney to maximize your in-region games.

In baseball, East Texas Baptist is closer to Millsaps College in Jackson Mississippi (260 Miles) than almost any conference member in the ASC-West, and yet the NCAA says that is too far.   Millsaps is in Admin Region #3 and South Evaluation Region. ETBU is in Region #4 and West Evaluation Region.  It isn't an in-region game.