D3 Coach calls sport at D3 level 'glorified high school football'... thoughts?

[TexasFootballturned2Trash]

My son was recruited at the FCS level, but like so many of our young men, he had trouble with the ACT and failed to meet D1 FCS standards. We began to explore our options and many D2's rosters already were filled up by signing day and the few that weren't...well they stunk even with a great scholarship package offered. I began to look into a D3 that was relatively close (within 6 hours drive) that had reached out to my son very early in the process and built a good relationship with the RC. He was very honest and very candid about what he perceived as the realities of D3 football, at least at his school. The things he said will no doubt ruffle a few feathers possibly, but I've read similar comments elsewhere on this board so I thought I'd solicit some other opinions on this matter. Here's what he said:

1. D3 football is basically the equivalent of a city All Star Game.
2. They recruit players who may actually never play in a game for sake of depth.
3. It's basically glorified high school football.
4. Sometimes they pick up kids who love the game more than it loves them. (basically they aren't good players)

What I find contradictory is statements 1 and 4. How can it be an All Star HS team if some of the kids (#'s 2 and 4) aren't good enough to field? Initially I figured #1 was the case, but after talking with an actual coach I began to wonder. I see all too well how kids can be overlooked, or just not in a position to go where they want because they themselves had a flawed test score. What kept lingering for me is this...if D3's can only offer academic money for recruitment, wouldn't that be a factor that hinders recruitment? I know it has for us and how to pay for college is not a concern of mine. I'm of the thought process that wouldn't the better players capable of getting athletic and academic scholarship money go elsewhere to help pay for school instead of missing out on big money to go a D3?
Every level has it's flaws. D1, D2, D3 and NAIA... every level has kids that will end up on permanent practice squad because of talent disparity. It seems to me though, that D3's really have it worse off when it comes to recruiting good players. The coach actually told me 'We figured we'd never have a chance with your son, but we reach out because sometimes kids slip up and we can get them here.' It seems rather opportunistic, but it is true. Lord knows D2's were never on our radar, yet alone D3. I assume everyone here has a kid playing D3 ball, so enlighten me please about the real true blue levels of talent on a typical D3 roster and where it stacks up in comparison to D2 and NAIA. I want unbiased and realistic feedback please. If we go the D3 route and find out it really is just glorified high school ball I'd be disappointed. So is the coaches statement correct?

[Ralph Turner]

TFT2T,

Welcome to the boards. I hope that you will enjoy your time here.

I will take first crack at this. I am a McMurry alum. I have followed McMurry football at a closer level since the internet made it easier to get news living outside the Abilene news market, about 1999, (D3sports.com being the biggest advantage).

First of all, 18 year old boys cannot compete with 22 year old men.  The maturity makes too much difference. In 2011, D3 McMurry beat D1 UTSA in the Alamodome when the  UTSA program was starting. Then McMurry beat D1 Houston Baptist when McMurry was trying to go to D-2.

Secondly, I think that coaching has the biggest influence on the outcome. When Hal Mumme came to McMurry and brought Joe Lee Dunn, he turned an 0-10 program around to contend for the ASC crown and win a playoff game in 3 seasons. He convinced Jake Mullins, a baseball pitcher to come back to play QB in the Air Raid. My friends closer to the program said that he won with D3 talent.

Third, there are a lot of players who come and finally get a real understanding of how much talent they really have.  I have made lifelong friends with student-athletes who came for sports but eventually finished with degrees. McMurry awards the most degrees in things that will give good jobs: business, healthcare/nursing, education/coaching and then pre-professional.

In Texas, the ASC is better than the NAIA schools, as a general rule.
McMurry is very competitive against D-2 Okie Panhandle State but will lose against Tarleton or TAMU-Commerce. There is not much inter-association play.

If the student/athlete comes to college and affords himself/herself of the discipline of:

class/practice/study,
class/practice/study,
class/practice/study.
Game day
and start over,

then the student/athlete will accomplish what he or she needs to do in life.  (I did not see much time in there for party/ get drunk/ over-sleep/ miss class/ start over.)

Most of us at this level like the players who are playing. They are pure amateurs.
You will get an occasional player who makes the NFL.

http://www.d3football.com/notables/2014/09/season-opens-with-nine-d3-alumni-on-nfl-rosters

You may have a Sydney Moss, who will lead Thomas More tomorrow night in defending their crown. She did not want the hassle of the job that D-1 is and came to D-3. She wanted to go to college!

http://www.d3hoops.com/playoffs/women/2016/tufts-defense-one-more-stop

I personally want the student-athlete that I am rooting for to be someone with whom I shall be glad to have in my community as a productive citizen.

I hope that your student-athlete has found a place to go to school, get the degree and become the adult that his/her parents want him/her to become.

[jknezek]

1. D3 football is basically the equivalent of a city All Star Game.
2. They recruit players who may actually never play in a game for sake of depth.
3. It's basically glorified high school football.
4. Sometimes they pick up kids who love the game more than it loves them. (basically they aren't good players)

I'll take these one at a time, but I want to start with a caveat. There are 240+ DIII teams and the level of play varies wildly. Far greater than D1. Mount Union and Wisconsin-Whitewater share almost nothing in common with the average DIII teams, let alone the poor ones, so when answering these questions you have to consider those major considerations.

To the first point. Kids that play on average or better DIII teams were almost always an All-Something player in h.s. At the top DIII schools, they are kids that might have been offered preferred walk-on status at a DI or better, or a partial at a DII and chose DIII instead. In the middle of DIII they are kids that were all-state or all-county type players, but maybe not first team or not at the largest divisions in the state. At the bottom of DIII they are kids who love football and want to keep playing. They might have been team captains as seniors and depending on the school they could be all-scholastic type team players, without being all-county. So is it glorified h.s.? I'm not sure what that means. At the top of DIII the teams are very, very good. Competitive with middle and lower tier FCS type schools. At the bottom of DIII are kids that keep playing because they love the game that much.

If there is one difference between DIII and h.s. it could be fan support. Friday Night Lights is huge for a community. Packed stadiums, everyone in town showing up for the game. At the vast majority of DIII it doesn't work that way. The games have maybe 500-1200 people in the stands, counting generously, and the atmosphere isn't so much electric as it is "mildly interested." Of course this varies, as UMHB has an incredible stadium, while other schools just have a few bleachers.

2) Over recruitment. Yes and no. Lots of DIII schools treat the football team as a way to get kids on campus. As many as possible. So you have close to 100 freshman, or in a few cases significantly more, coming in, and less than 15 seniors going out. How much of this is blind over recruitment and how much of this is simply attrition as kids try and balance school and practice? There are plenty of schools that bring in 30-50 freshman, whether that is because it is all they can get through admissions at the top schools, or just honest assessment of the players is up for debate, but there are always outliers the other way that need the cash as many freshman as possible can provide.

3) I think I handled this one already. As Ralph said, an average 22 year old will hammer most really good 18 year olds. 4 more years in the weight room, 4 more years of practice, 4 more years of maturity. The DIII schools in VA used to occassionally scrimmage Fork Union which is one of those h.s. teams for kids who don't make grades and try one more year of h.s. to pull themselves up. The kids on the Fork Union team are almost always DI scholarship kids if they can get the grades. The DIII teams when playing first string kids usually handle Fork Union's top kids, and that's just a function of age, size and experience. So is the level of play glorified h.s.? All but the worst DIII teams will compete with even the best h.s. teams.

4)Sure. This goes back to point 2. Most schools don't do cut downs, you just get buried on the depth chart. It depends on the kid how much energy and effort he wants to expend pushing up the depth chart over 4 years. Most schools lose about 75% of the freshman they bring in by the time they are seniors. The schools that bring in the most freshman lose more, the schools that bring in the least tend to retain the most. That is just how the world works. Do all coaches give honest assessments of the kids? Probably not. But it's always up to the kid if he wants to keep at it. There is no $$$ to hold over the kids head.

Good luck. DIII football can be very good, very competitive, very entertaining and very rewarding. It should be all of these things if your child lands in the right spot for him. Only you, he and the coach can determine if the school you are looking at will provide the football experience, and more importantly the education, your son wants and needs.

[Bombers798891]

1. D3 football is basically the equivalent of a city All Star Game.
2. They recruit players who may actually never play in a game for sake of depth.
3. It's basically glorified high school football.
4. Sometimes they pick up kids who love the game more than it loves them. (basically they aren't good players)

What I find contradictory is statements 1 and 4. How can it be an All Star HS team if some of the kids (#'s 2 and 4) aren't good enough to field? Initially I figured #1 was the case, but after talking with an actual coach I began to wonder. I see all too well how kids can be overlooked, or just not in a position to go where they want because they themselves had a flawed test score. What kept lingering for me is this...if D3's can only offer academic money for recruitment, wouldn't that be a factor that hinders recruitment? I know it has for us and how to pay for college is not a concern of mine. I'm of the thought process that wouldn't the better players capable of getting athletic and academic scholarship money go elsewhere to help pay for school instead of missing out on big money to go a D3?

The statements are not contradictory at all.

As an example, Jordan McElroy was a linebacker for Ithaca. In high school, he was first-team all-conference, first team all-county, and first team all-area. His college career (2008-11) consisted of 11 games one tackle and a four yard kick return. It's one anecdote, but I suspect if you go to any roster, you'll see this same type of thing more than a few times.

As this relates to #4, it's not that they aren't good players, it's that they aren't good college players. They love football because they've played it their whole lives, they like being part of a team, they were very good in high school, but they're just not good enough to crack a college roster.

As for the concept of glorified high school, there are some things to address.

1. I think, as jknezek, points out, some of this is atmosphere. There are a whole lot of D-III institutions where, if we're being honest, an overwhelmingly large percentage of the student/community population really just does not care at all about the program. The football team could be 9-1, or 5-5, or 2-8 and it would not make a lick of difference to a whole lot of people. In a lot of these small towns, I think high school sports matter more to a lot of people. When Ithaca lost the Cortaca Jug, it wasn't even the lead story in the sports section. The focus was on the boys' soccer team, which was ranked #1 in the state and I think in the quarterfinals.

2. I don't think this is as true in football, but I have a good friend who was recruited very heavily to play a couple sports at Ithaca (soccer and track), and simply chose not to, and to focus on other things. I think this creates a strange dynamic, where in some cases, the guys who choose not to play the sport are probably nearly as good as the people who do. I think football might be different, but I think it can create this strange sort of dynamic. We're used to D-1 or even D-2, where the athletes are just a whole other level than the general student body. There certainly are many D-III athletes who are this way, but I think there are a whole bunch of others who are good athletes, just like a lot of students who choose not to be athletes, and I think it kind of creates a perception that the talent level is not always a huge increase.

[ExTartanPlayer]

Outstanding replies from a few of the board regulars already.  I won't bother repeating all of what they said...only most of it.

#1: the vast majority of starters in Division III football games were All-Something (depending on region of the country & size of their high school that might be All-League, All-County, or All-State).  There might be the occasional kid who took up football late and didn't really blossom in high school, or a kid who played at some supersize high school behind a couple of D1 kids and therefore was never really a featured player in high school.  But at the majority of D3 schools, every kid that's on the field in prime time was either a team captain, or a three-year starter, or a (something indicating he was good) in high school. 

#2: probably true...but why is that a bad thing?  Attrition is relatively high in Division III football - unlike D1.  Maintaining a healthy program requires a lot of warm bodies every year to make sure you get enough kids who 1) can actually play and 2) will stick around and stay on the team.  Besides, sometimes one of those Rudy types will surprise you.  In a non-scholarship program, why turn away someone who wants to play for you?

#3: I'll just reiterate what Bombers and jknezek said.  This perception has more to do with the atmosphere than it does the quality of play.  Even a mediocre Division III team would wipe out all but the absolute best high school teams (I still remember how jarring it was the first time I watched one of my old high school tapes after playing a couple years in college...I couldn't believe how slow and small everyone looked).  "Glorified high school" is a really weird term, anyway...isn't all college football just "glorified high school" football?  Division I may be "more glorified" than Division III, but it's still just kids who are 18-22 years old playing football on a field.

#4: is basically the same statement as #2.  Yeah, most Division III schools will have a couple of Rudy types at the end of their benches.  So?

As I typed the answer out here, I think I understood your question a little better.  Yes, there are a handful of kids who may not have been "All Stars" who are on D3 rosters, but that doesn't mean the field is littered with them playing in crunch time.  Just like every high school has a couple seniors who've spent their careers warming the bench but, God love'em, they're still out there on senior day...most D3 schools have a few of them, too.  A few other things from your post that caught my eye:

"I'm of the thought process that wouldn't the better players capable of getting athletic and academic scholarship money go elsewhere to help pay for school instead of missing out on big money to go a D3?"

I think you might be overestimating how much that "big money" is below the FBS and FCS levels.  Division II schools and NAIA schools can't offer all that many scholarships, and most of the kids playing there are going to be on a partial scholarship.  For some kids (and some parents) merely saying that they're "on scholarship" is enough to take that...because they just want to brag about having a scholarship.  For some kids, that partial scholarship gets added to a list of other pros and cons among several different college choices.  Honestly, I think the difference between most kids going D2 vs. D3 has less to do with "how much scholarship money did they offer" and more to do with "which school is the best fit for me" (which may include finances, of course, but also things like location, academic programs, football scheme fit, rapport with the coaching staff, etc).  Plenty of my college teammates could have been on the roster at some D2 or FCS schools, but they ended up where they did because it was the right place to be.

I also should point out that at least half of every incoming D3 class is composed of kids who were getting letters from FCS schools (at one point) and thought that they might be going to a bigger school (at one point).  Despite the feeling that your son is a special snowflake that's the best recruit this D3 school has ever courted and they'll be so gosh-darn lucky to have such a great find with him slipping up on his ACT's and not qualifying academically...this happens more than you think.  Chances are at least one other kid in his recruiting class will have a very similar story - "I was totally going D1 until my grades didn't make it / I tore my ACL / the school over-signed / my coach screwed me as a senior" and so on.

After re-reading your initial post, I think you and/or your son might have a harder time with the change in atmosphere (because I'll freely admit that really big-time HS football probably has more fans in the stands, and more overall intensity from the fan base, than most regular-season D3 games) than the "talent" issue.  Ralph has kind of hit the nail on the head here: if your son wants the chance to play football for four more years, and a chance to excel in the classroom and get a degree, then playing Division III football is an outstanding place to achieve those goals.  If your son just wants to walk around, feel like a big deal because he's a football player, and have the cheerleaders decorate his locker...well, that might not happen at a D3 school.  If you want to go someplace where the stands are filled with the whole town rooting on the local team...also might not happen at a D3 school.

I guess my closing thought is that your son could always go to the local D3 for a year...and if the talent level is such a disappointment to you and/or your son, he can always transfer "up" if he gets his grades in order to qualify as a transfer student to the bigger schools.  In which case, the year spent at a D3 would seem like a winning situation, right?  Pitch it to him that way - OK, you wanted to play at "FCS State" and it didn't work out, so now go to "D3 College" and kill it both on the field and in the classroom.

[wally_wabash]

1. D3 football is basically the equivalent of a city All Star Game.

3. It's basically glorified high school football.

When I see these kinds of things, I always come back to this same response:

Every single kid who is playing in D3 played in high school (and as mentioned, nearly all were all-somethingorother at some point in HS).  Not every kid playing on a HS team is going to play college ball (not even D3).   

High school vs. college?  The game isn't even close.  The gap between high school and D-III football is immense.  Bigger than most can imagine.  Atmospheres will vary- all but a handful of the fiercest rivalry games will not be the same as a Friday night game in Texas.  But that's going to be the case anywhere outside of the P5 in the FBS, honestly. 

I think what's a bummer for me is that the story here is about a D3 coach putting D3 football on blast.  Thankfully names have been redacted...if that's what my school's football coach was saying about the game at this level, I'd be pretty salty. 

[Bombers798891]

 

I think what's a bummer for me is that the story here is about a D3 coach putting D3 football on blast.  Thankfully names have been redacted...if that's what my school's football coach was saying about the game at this level, I'd be pretty salty.

Why? None of these statements are incorrect, except for the glorified HS football one, but that needs a lot of context. Is he talking about the level of play on the field, or the atmosphere? What's the HS football like in his state? Where's his team on the D-III pecking order?

Or does he mean something positive? Maybe what this coach is getting at is that, for most HS football players, the game is not about getting to, or even aspiring to the next level. It's about playing because you want to play, and love the sport, but your real focus is on school, and developing as a person. Because that's what's going on here as well. It's not glorified HS because of the talent level being equal, but because the focus is on more than just football

[wally_wabash]

 

I think what's a bummer for me is that the story here is about a D3 coach putting D3 football on blast.  Thankfully names have been redacted...if that's what my school's football coach was saying about the game at this level, I'd be pretty salty.

Why? None of these statements are incorrect, except for the glorified HS football one, but that needs a lot of context. Is he talking about the level of play on the field, or the atmosphere? What's the HS football like in his state? Where's his team on the D-III pecking order?

Or does he mean something positive? Maybe what this coach is getting at is that, for most HS football players, the game is not about getting to, or even aspiring to the next level. It's about playing because you want to play, and love the sport, but your real focus is on school, and developing as a person. Because that's what's going on here as well. It's not glorified HS because of the talent level being equal, but because the focus is on more than just football

That's an interesting read on the coach's comments and I can see where you're coming from.  Maybe that is the sentiment.  But that isn't the voice that I read the original post in.  I hope I'm wrong and you're right about this one, Bombers. 

[Bombers798891]

 

I think what's a bummer for me is that the story here is about a D3 coach putting D3 football on blast.  Thankfully names have been redacted...if that's what my school's football coach was saying about the game at this level, I'd be pretty salty.

Why? None of these statements are incorrect, except for the glorified HS football one, but that needs a lot of context. Is he talking about the level of play on the field, or the atmosphere? What's the HS football like in his state? Where's his team on the D-III pecking order?

Or does he mean something positive? Maybe what this coach is getting at is that, for most HS football players, the game is not about getting to, or even aspiring to the next level. It's about playing because you want to play, and love the sport, but your real focus is on school, and developing as a person. Because that's what's going on here as well. It's not glorified HS because of the talent level being equal, but because the focus is on more than just football

That's an interesting read on the coach's comments and I can see where you're coming from.  Maybe that is the sentiment.  But that isn't the voice that I read the original post in.  I hope I'm wrong and you're right about this one, Bombers.

I'm not sure I'm right about the "glorified" one, but the other three I feel good enough about to concluded this wasn't a coach ripping his sport. Look, I love D-III football, and it's preferable in many ways to D-I. But sometimes, I think we're a little too quick to jump to the defense of the sport against any perceived criticism. It's not perfect. There's nothing wrong with admitting that there's probably a lesser importance placed on it, community wise, than you'd see at a high school in some areas, and that for some, that can be a turn-off. And there's certainly nothing wrong with admitting that it's much closer in several ways to the HS model than the D-I level

[TexasFootballturned2Trash]

I don't think the coach was ripping at D3 football, or his program so much...partially maybe his program, but not the level I assume. The coach is a really nice and honest kind of guy for whatever that's worth as most recruiting coordinators try to be like that any ways. I will say that my feeling on him is that he is a decent guy.
I just want to get an objective opinion about the D3/NAIA levels of play. UMHB is a very good program as I've seen their record as of the last few years. We've opened the door to all possibilities as far as playing level because I can appreciate the smaller class sizes afforded at the smaller schools. Bottom line is I want my son to get his degree first, play some quality football second and tear it up so that transferring is an option if he is afforded the opportunity and wants to. We went on a official visit to an NAIA and I was pretty impressed with the schools academics, the program, it's achievements and booster support/fan base. It's far off however and the scholarship amount offered because as they said 'they've recruited so many kids prior to us' is small in comparison to other offers we've been given. To me anyone can go play football, but if you're going to play you should be able to enjoy it as well. So I guess a perfect small school to me would have smaller teacher to student ratios, a good fan base (even though our high school stadium is almost double the capacity of that NAIA school), a winning program (they won their conference the past two years) and academic support. D2's are emerging again and offering, but I think a small school will be the better choice for my son as a scholar. I'm going to either nudge my son towards D3, or NAIA at least for a year, or two so his feet can be firmly planted in college expectations. After two years if football isn't so shiny he can come back home and I'll put him through TSU, UTSA, UIW or some other respectable academic school. There is a very close D3 nearby, but there's a kid on their team that has bad blood with my son and I would never put him in a situation where he might have to do something stupid to defend himself because the other kid has feces for brains. What are your thoughts on a supposedly "strong NAIA" program? I can imagine as D3 supporters not much lol...

[Bombers798891]

I just want to get an objective opinion about the D3/NAIA levels of play... Bottom line is I want my son to get his degree first, play some quality football second and tear it up so that transferring is an option if he is afforded the opportunity and wants to....I guess a perfect small school to me would have smaller teacher to student ratios, a good fan base (even though our high school stadium is almost double the capacity of that NAIA school), a winning program (they won their conference the past two years) and academic support.

I can't speak to NAIA, but to the first part...I mean it varies, a lot. There's not a consistent level to kind of base it on. Even conferences can vary from year to year, so it's not like picking a "conference winner" is always going to be consistent year to year, unless your son is picking one of the elite programs.

As for attendance, in 2014, only 20 schools drew more than 3,500 fans per game on average (though these numbers may be inexact at many schools). So if you're saying that your son's HS stadium was twice as big as an NAIA school, you may be disappointed...the attendance figures for 2014 can be found here

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2014.pdf

[Ralph Turner]

Hmm.. won the conference title 2 years in a row?

Well SAGU lost to Arizona Christian in the Central States Conference in 2015.

Tabor KS (NAIA Kansas Coll Ath Conf 2015 champ) in Hillsboro KS is a long way away.

As for academics, (IMHO) Texas Wesleyan 1st, followed by Wayland Baptist and SAGU next.

[AO]

Hmm.. won the conference title 2 years in a row?

Well SAGU lost to Arizona Christian in the Central States Conference in 2015.

Tabor KS (NAIA Kansas Coll Ath Conf 2015 champ) in Hillsboro KS is a long way away.

As for academics, (IMHO) Texas Wesleyan 1st, followed by Wayland Baptist and SAGU next.

SAGU also plays at the local 10,000 seat HS stadium so that's not it.

All you guys pooh-poohing the atmosphere at D3 need to come to Minnesota where the average conference game draws 3,200 and the big ones draw more than 10,000. 

[wally_wabash]

Yes, there are places that have big gameday crowds.  I'm lucky enough to be a part of one for at least five Saturdays every fall.  But offering up pictures of a Tommie-Johnnie game isn't really representative.  There's only a handful of games like that in D3 every year (and I'm sure those in the MIAC land would assert pretty strongly that there are NO games like that one). 

Average 2015 attendance was 1,882 across all of Division III. 

In Texas specifically, you had season averages of:
Mary Hardin-Baylor 3,094
Hardin-Simmons 2,987
Howard Payne 2,692
East Tex. Baptist 2,396
Sul Ross St. 2,165
McMurry 1,585
Trinity (TX) 1,880
Southwestern (TX) 2,237
Texas Lutheran 2,068
Austin 1,178

[AO]

Yes, there are places that have big gameday crowds.  I'm lucky enough to be a part of one for at least five Saturdays every fall.  But offering up pictures of a Tommie-Johnnie game isn't really representative.  There's only a handful of games like that in D3 every year (and I'm sure those in the MIAC land would assert pretty strongly that there are NO games like that one). 

Average 2015 attendance was 1,882 across all of Division III. 

In Texas specifically, you had season averages of:
Mary Hardin-Baylor 3,094
Hardin-Simmons 2,987
Howard Payne 2,692
East Tex. Baptist 2,396
Sul Ross St. 2,165
McMurry 1,585
Trinity (TX) 1,880
Southwestern (TX) 2,237
Texas Lutheran 2,068
Austin 1,178

I'm certainly not claiming the MIAC is representative of D3, just pointing out what's possible.  If your only experience watching football is 6A Texas high school, FBS and NFL, then you might have some unrealistic expectations, but those Texas D3's with 2,200 average attendance can still have great atmosphere.  The NAIA doesn't keep good attendance records but I was at least able to see that Wayland Baptist in Texas only averages about 700.

What percentage of college athletes at all divisions get a chance to play multiple times in front of a crowd of 2,200?